FE beta 3 - what's missing? Stuff for the sequel

By on July 1, 2012 1:15:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008
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I realize FE is still in development, but at this point you guys probably have the major features set in stone. Here are some things I feel is missing from FE, and thus really should go into the sequel. Or you could read it as a list of things missing to take the game from "good" to "great" at release.

1) Sieges. The cooler this is the better the game will be. Mid- and late-game are all about capturing cities (at least it is right now beta3) so it needs a properly epic format for it. A fight in front of a city just isn't it. My ideal siege format is Shogun 2 (cities starve while sieged, takes many strategic turns, can get reinforced meanwhile), but it'd be with much smaller maps for FE. If possible, and again this is a major feature, I would like the option to design my own castles partially, by placing arrow turrets, monster pits and traps on the map for my own castles (walls would always be the same for each type of castle). Spells and essence also play a huge part here. Castles are destructible, and there is accuracy reduction when line of sight is poor.

2) Caves, dungeons, other planes of existence. This would need to be a concept within the lore of the game obviously, but I know we have things like demon portals and other worlds (where the Titans came from). Basically, like other games have, you can leave the strategic map and travel into another strategic map - be it underground, into hell, a floating isle and so on. Secondary minor strategic maps filled with awesome. See Warlock: master of the arcane. Also this feels like the natural expansion for Wildlands.

3) Naval warfare. Personally, I hate it in computer games, but I can't imagine a top-of-the-line fantasy 4X game without it. It's a big chunk missing.

4) Crafting. This one is "extra seasoning". It is not needed to make a great game, but if done right it will make it even greater. Fairly straightforward, throw mana, crystal, metal and every other resource you can think of into a melting pot, see what comes out. Preferably you put in a "base" item like a plate helmet and the effects stack onto that. That creates the basic scaling system for crafting - you can make leather and such if you researched it, or a special plate helmet if you researched or found one normal. Crafted items should be randomized with a ton (100+) of fun special abilities, including being "cursed" with negative effects. Magical items could maybe be broken down into resources as well, if you research X. Special champions might increase your luck a little when crafting. Throwing an shard into the melting pot would be cool too.

5) Independent city states. It is in my opinion a feature that Civ5 perfected. In E:wom there were minor factions but got removed until you could spend time developing them. Diplomacy comes into play, but also they are a great "in" for having special units or features, and thus greatly increases randomization(=replay) of games. Being allied to one minor faction means you can train special mounts. Allied to another = humanoid monsters won't attack you. One minor faction just sells potions. Another builds golems. They are conquerable, but can put up a good fight and you lose a bit of the bonus if they get conquered. They make demands every now and then - kill a monster, attack that sonofabitch, bring us food and so on.

6) Lots of new tactical stuff. I know this is vague, but look at Might and Magic Heroes 6, it is pure candy in tactical battles. The basic unit for the Haven faction has a trait which makes the unit redirect 50% of all damage suffered by adjacent friendlies to itself. That trait alone is better (more interesting) than 90% of the traits in FE. That's just an example, but to me, the organic way forward for making units while keeping them designable is mutually exclusive traits. The traits would go into three categories: special actions (sunder armor, scare horses), defensive properties (fire resistance, regenerate in battle), utility (low wages, xp in cities)

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July 6, 2012 2:07:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think these are all good points.

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July 9, 2012 7:38:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What no one else would like to see a expanded tech tree where you can go from Dark Ages to Steam Punk? I think that would be awesome! The current tech that goes from crude medieval stuff to shiny medieval stuff is boring.

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July 10, 2012 8:43:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Nah, steampunk isn't really a part of my vision of fantasy, At least not as the end of a tech tree. Could be a faction if anything.

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July 10, 2012 10:17:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
What no one else would like to see a expanded tech tree where you can go from Dark Ages to Steam Punk? I think that would be awesome! The current tech that goes from crude medieval stuff to shiny medieval stuff is boring.

I've just been given a foul tech-tree taste.

Have been playing Galciv 2, and I must say, WORST TECHTREE EVER. So much time is spent for +1 bonuses to this little thing or that.... so annoying. I couldn't imagine playing the game and NOT being the technologists (helps shrink down the waiting times).

When it comes to FE, imo, the tech tree has to be functional....not modular....and I think for the most part they've succeeded in that.

By adding in steampunk, what do you accomplish, but turn the game modular??? Same abilities with just better stats and a new symbol to represent the new unit. The game hasn't changed. It's just been extended. No thank you.

And is why I get bored of Civ after 1000ad......things just become the same over and over. "your new unit get's +5 instead of +3 now. It's cool cause it's got a new name." Ummm....no.

The best techs are the ones that provide something unique to the game.....the more impact, the better. Again, I think FE is well on the way to accomplishing that.....

(sorry for the rammble...I'm all over the place in this comment)  

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July 10, 2012 11:45:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would want a slightly larger tech tree with 1 or 2 more branches....

But I do not need the tech tree any slower right now, I usually play fast because it takes ages to get up the tech tree, a slightly bigger tech tree would just feel like there is more to achieve, then again I do feel differently about the tech tree than (I Think) the devs, or brad, or whoever is up there deciding, is envisioning how its best.
(I would like it to be "viable" to only focus on 1 tech tree)

I do not feel the need for steampunk, while games adding steampunk can be nice, I have never seen it implemented in an interesting way, and see little reason they should begin devote a lot of time doing this to the game now.

Ps. Imagine I quoted the relevant posts

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 10, 2012 12:12:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

God help me Kongdej, I love that sentiment.

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July 10, 2012 3:55:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Heavenfall,
Nah, steampunk isn't really a part of my vision of fantasy, At least not as the end of a tech tree. Could be a faction if anything.

Yes a faction focused on technology with very limited magic but the ability to research steampunkish technology would be really interesting IMO.

 

EDIT: Or if their magic WAS steampunk! After all steampunk is kinda magical.

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July 10, 2012 4:11:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I was actually looking at steampunk models when trying to come up with stuff for my Golem faction. Unfortunately there were none available so I didn't go for it. Would have been neat to have a steampunk mount of some kind.

 

Like this one http://www.tabletpcwallpapers.com/ipad-2-tablet-wallpapers/ipad-3d-abstract-wallpapers/2011/29/3d-tablet-wallpaper-transformer-wolf-3d-model-ipad-wallpaper-tablet-pcs.html

Or this (with a beige texture) http://www.creativecrash.com/maya/marketplace/3d-models/characters/c/robot-tiger/topics

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July 15, 2012 8:43:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like all the ideas.  Not sure about the cities though.

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July 16, 2012 1:11:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Sarudak,

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 28Nah, steampunk isn't really a part of my vision of fantasy, At least not as the end of a tech tree. Could be a faction if anything.

Yes a faction focused on technology with very limited magic but the ability to research steampunkish technology would be really interesting IMO.

 

EDIT: Or if their magic WAS steampunk! After all steampunk is kinda magical.

Hmmm Stop making me like the idea!!! (Thinking about gilden most of all). I remember some steam punk items from MoM and Age of Wonders. (Shadow magic mostly, cause thats most fresh in memory)

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 16, 2012 1:51:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In order to make a steampunk team I think mainly you would need models for muskets. You could also reskin a horse or spider to be a mechanical mount, or find a steam bike model. A cannon would be nice but probably very hard to implement and would need a lot of animation.

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July 16, 2012 2:33:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting DsRaider,
In order to make a steampunk team I think mainly you would need models for muskets. You could also reskin a horse or spider to be a mechanical mount, or find a steam bike model. A cannon would be nice but probably very hard to implement and would need a lot of animation.

don't need muskets for steampunk imo, just big steamtanks (dont need guns, meaby just to to kill stuff by ramming it) and crawly walky robots, like golems.
Meaby you mean alot more steampunk than I do, in that cause its a whole different... aura.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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July 17, 2012 1:36:50 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting RogueCaptain,
A readjustment in damage calculations for army stacks.


FE's current system measures X amount of damage successfully dealt always equals Y number of units per stack are dead, no exceptions. That includes magical damage too. The problem is distribution of the damage dealt. If I dealt 10 damage against ten units, should two of them always fall dead 100% of the time or should there be a possibly of only one dropping dead with five others wounded etc?
Being able to spread the damage between total HP and individual targets in a stack opens up a whole new paradigm of possibilities. If you still don't understand think Japanese Bushido ability from Civilization 5.

Hopefully this would balance the archery weapons and add diversity to the magic damage spells too. Some cause more total HP damage overall while others fell more targets for less damage. Heroes would be unaffected because they are not stacks.

THis just 'feels' right

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July 26, 2012 9:16:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

I realize FE is still in development, but at this point you guys probably have the major features set in stone. Here are some things I feel is missing from FE, and thus really should go into the sequel. Or you could read it as a list of things missing to take the game from "good" to "great" at release.

1) Sieges. The cooler this is the better the game will be. Mid- and late-game are all about capturing cities (at least it is right now beta3) so it needs a properly epic format for it. A fight in front of a city just isn't it. My ideal siege format is Shogun 2 (cities starve while sieged, takes many strategic turns, can get reinforced meanwhile), but it'd be with much smaller maps for FE. If possible, and again this is a major feature, I would like the option to design my own castles partially, by placing arrow turrets, monster pits and traps on the map for my own castles (walls would always be the same for each type of castle). Spells and essence also play a huge part here. Castles are destructible, and there is accuracy reduction when line of sight is poor.

2) Caves, dungeons, other planes of existence. This would need to be a concept within the lore of the game obviously, but I know we have things like demon portals and other worlds (where the Titans came from). Basically, like other games have, you can leave the strategic map and travel into another strategic map - be it underground, into hell, a floating isle and so on. Secondary minor strategic maps filled with awesome. See Warlock: master of the arcane. Also this feels like the natural expansion for Wildlands.

3) Naval warfare. Personally, I hate it in computer games, but I can't imagine a top-of-the-line fantasy 4X game without it. It's a big chunk missing.

4) Crafting. This one is "extra seasoning". It is not needed to make a great game, but if done right it will make it even greater. Fairly straightforward, throw mana, crystal, metal and every other resource you can think of into a melting pot, see what comes out. Preferably you put in a "base" item like a plate helmet and the effects stack onto that. That creates the basic scaling system for crafting - you can make leather and such if you researched it, or a special plate helmet if you researched or found one normal. Crafted items should be randomized with a ton (100+) of fun special abilities, including being "cursed" with negative effects. Magical items could maybe be broken down into resources as well, if you research X. Special champions might increase your luck a little when crafting. Throwing an shard into the melting pot would be cool too.

5) Independent city states. It is in my opinion a feature that Civ5 perfected. In E:wom there were minor factions but got removed until you could spend time developing them. Diplomacy comes into play, but also they are a great "in" for having special units or features, and thus greatly increases randomization(=replay) of games. Being allied to one minor faction means you can train special mounts. Allied to another = humanoid monsters won't attack you. One minor faction just sells potions. Another builds golems. They are conquerable, but can put up a good fight and you lose a bit of the bonus if they get conquered. They make demands every now and then - kill a monster, attack that sonofabitch, bring us food and so on.

6) Lots of new tactical stuff. I know this is vague, but look at Might and Magic Heroes 6, it is pure candy in tactical battles. The basic unit for the Haven faction has a trait which makes the unit redirect 50% of all damage suffered by adjacent friendlies to itself. That trait alone is better (more interesting) than 90% of the traits in FE. That's just an example, but to me, the organic way forward for making units while keeping them designable is mutually exclusive traits. The traits would go into three categories: special actions (sunder armor, scare horses), defensive properties (fire resistance, regenerate in battle), utility (low wages, xp in cities)

 

Wow...Couldn't have said it better myself! You add dual wielding to this list and its perfect! Lets hope they implement these items! Karma for you!

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July 26, 2012 10:37:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I too would like some sort of siege/storm mechanic (Lords of the Realm 2 was also great for this).

Storming a town could perhaps be lightly implemented within the current engine by requiring the sovereign to cast a strategic spell against sufficiently fortified cities to blast a hole in the wall (earthquakes, explosions, tornadoes depending on the magic school).  Then when you move your troops in, the tactical map could be the city instead of the field outside as the battle takes place in the streets.

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July 31, 2012 3:05:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

I realize FE is still in development, but at this point you guys probably have the major features set in stone. Here are some things I feel is missing from FE, and thus really should go into the sequel. Or you could read it as a list of things missing to take the game from "good" to "great" at release.

1) Sieges. The cooler this is the better the game will be. Mid- and late-game are all about capturing cities (at least it is right now beta3) so it needs a properly epic format for it. A fight in front of a city just isn't it. My ideal siege format is Shogun 2 (cities starve while sieged, takes many strategic turns, can get reinforced meanwhile), but it'd be with much smaller maps for FE. If possible, and again this is a major feature, I would like the option to design my own castles partially, by placing arrow turrets, monster pits and traps on the map for my own castles (walls would always be the same for each type of castle). Spells and essence also play a huge part here. Castles are destructible, and there is accuracy reduction when line of sight is poor.

2) Caves, dungeons, other planes of existence. This would need to be a concept within the lore of the game obviously, but I know we have things like demon portals and other worlds (where the Titans came from). Basically, like other games have, you can leave the strategic map and travel into another strategic map - be it underground, into hell, a floating isle and so on. Secondary minor strategic maps filled with awesome. See Warlock: master of the arcane. Also this feels like the natural expansion for Wildlands.

3) Naval warfare. Personally, I hate it in computer games, but I can't imagine a top-of-the-line fantasy 4X game without it. It's a big chunk missing.

4) Crafting. This one is "extra seasoning". It is not needed to make a great game, but if done right it will make it even greater. Fairly straightforward, throw mana, crystal, metal and every other resource you can think of into a melting pot, see what comes out. Preferably you put in a "base" item like a plate helmet and the effects stack onto that. That creates the basic scaling system for crafting - you can make leather and such if you researched it, or a special plate helmet if you researched or found one normal. Crafted items should be randomized with a ton (100+) of fun special abilities, including being "cursed" with negative effects. Magical items could maybe be broken down into resources as well, if you research X. Special champions might increase your luck a little when crafting. Throwing an shard into the melting pot would be cool too.

5) Independent city states. It is in my opinion a feature that Civ5 perfected. In E:wom there were minor factions but got removed until you could spend time developing them. Diplomacy comes into play, but also they are a great "in" for having special units or features, and thus greatly increases randomization(=replay) of games. Being allied to one minor faction means you can train special mounts. Allied to another = humanoid monsters won't attack you. One minor faction just sells potions. Another builds golems. They are conquerable, but can put up a good fight and you lose a bit of the bonus if they get conquered. They make demands every now and then - kill a monster, attack that sonofabitch, bring us food and so on.

6) Lots of new tactical stuff. I know this is vague, but look at Might and Magic Heroes 6, it is pure candy in tactical battles. The basic unit for the Haven faction has a trait which makes the unit redirect 50% of all damage suffered by adjacent friendlies to itself. That trait alone is better (more interesting) than 90% of the traits in FE. That's just an example, but to me, the organic way forward for making units while keeping them designable is mutually exclusive traits. The traits would go into three categories: special actions (sunder armor, scare horses), defensive properties (fire resistance, regenerate in battle), utility (low wages, xp in cities)

 

Some ideas I agree with and others I do not.

And to be clear about what I write below, a Warfare Sovereign only researches Warfare techs, and a Magic Sovereign..... you get it.

 

1) Sieges.
I agree, implementing a unique tactical battle map for city sieges like in Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic would vastly improve the game. Titans know that Elemental is in dire need of breaking away from the monotony of tactical battles. This feature would also leave wide open the opportunity for more city improvements and spells. As an example, Sovereigns who research into the Warfare path can fill up their city's build queue with fortifications, turrets, traps, and their upgrades. Sovereigns who focus on the Magic path cast a spell to erect a wall of fire, ice, or earth, build magical turrets with a mana cost, have artisans craft a giant statue and imbue it with essence/mana so it comes to life  and acts as a powerful defender. This is how both a Magic and Warfare Sovereign can defend themselves from an army.

To attack either fortification with an army, a Warfare Sovereign would punch holes into a regular wall, ice wall, or earth wall with a siege engine, destroy regular or magical turrets in the same way, and kill defenders with the rest of his army. Getting past a wall of fire would be trickier, requiring the army to put out the fire in some way, place a slab of stone over the flames to act as a bridge, or requiring troops to wear fire resistant armor to pass through unharmed. Magical Sovereigns would of course destroy walls and turrets and defenders with spells.

To defend against magical attacks, a Magic Sovereign may choose to erect an anti-magic tower, a tower which activates during city sieges and damages anyone who casts a spell based on the mana cost of the spell. Other kinds of anti-magic towers can do damage each turn to summoned units, double the mana cost of all spells. The powerful statue come to life can be magic immune. But this is only for tactical battles.

To defend against magical attacks on the world map, a Magic Sovereign can protect the city with a magical dome that soaks up magical damage. One version can soak up a fixed amount of damage before it dissipates. Another version uses the mana pool to directly power the dome: as the shield withstands magical damage, it removes mana from the pool proportional to the damage. Other forms of defense could be a very very expensive dome that grants total immunity to spells from one school of magic, (useful against Sovereigns with many of one type of shard). So expensive that there is an additional cost of a shard to power the dome. While a shard is used to power a dome, it can neither power spells, nor grant mana per turn. Only one type of dome can protect a city of course.
Another form of defense is a giant cloud obscuring the city from view. Relatively inexpensive to cast, it reduces chances of a strategic spells like 'Firestorm' from hitting the city at the cost of lowering the food output of the city.

To defend against strategic or tactical spells, a Warfare Sovereign can ..... we need to be creative, even invent some new stuff .
To defend against Strategic spells, a Warfare Sovereign can build a disaster shelter within which units can hide. Shelters can withstand a certain amount of damage before they are destroyed. Another option would be some artifact or trophy that was acquired from a quest or Wildlands boss.

To defend against tactical spells, a Warfare Sovereign could again rely on artifacts and trophies. We could also make up a new resource that has anti-magic properties that can be used to produce protective armors for units or build anti-magic towers that are completely different from the set available to Magic Sovereigns. One version could lower the level of spells allowed to cast by 2. So a mage can only cast level 1 spells, and a master can cast only level 3 and lower spells. This works independently for each school of magic. Another anti-magic tower could cause damage per turn to each unit that could cast a spell using mana (does not effect magical creatures casting their abilities). A third version could halve the effectiveness of most spells cast, i.e. halve the damage or stat change, or halve the duration of the buff.

 

**********************
On a side note, I'd like to see Strategic spells that are more random in hitting targets. Because a Sovereign/Champion is not nearby, like in a tactical battle, where he could aim his spells at individual units, Strategic spells should be strong, but unreliable at hitting anything. To reflect this, a spell like firestorm should have a 50% chance at hitting an enemy and a 10% chance at destroying a building. Or that % can be dependent on how far away the caster is. The spell could also blast a hole in the wall but at a random point.
**********************

This also opens up more unit possibilities. Units, creatures, or summonables could have traits that allow them to pummel walls, climb over walls, or tunnel under walls. Flying creatures (dragons) could also fly over walls.

What I disagree with you is when you want to starve out cities like in Shogun 2. Realistic it may be, but I hate that. When I play shogun 2, I always end up starving the army inside the city and force them to come out of their castle to fight me on the field. It is a lot easier to take over cities this way, but it removes the satisfaction of a good old-fashioned castle siege.

What did you mean by "Spells and essence also play a huge part here." I can understand spells, but what about essence? And do you mean how essence used to be, or the new beta 4 version?

 

2) Caves, dungeons, and other planes of existence.
Although it would be cool to have other planes of existence where the Titans live, I'd rather focus the player's attention on the main map. The attraction of these other planes would, of course, be great treasures to be had at the cost of confronting powerful enemies. But the problem is why should I waste my time fighting insanely powerful monsters for loot / rare resources when I can just roll over the AI now.
The answer to this could be to make city defenses very strong.

Caves and dungeons could be places to stuff monsters into so they do not roam the world map, but I'd rather keep the player's attention on the world map.

 

3) Naval Warfare.
Absolutely not. this is the last thing I would implement after a long list of other features.
To make things interesting, we would need several types of ships. Then we would need to create a bunch of roaming sea monsters and summonables, which would be cool, but a lot of work to implement and balance. I'd rather they invest the time in fleshing out land battles. Besides, sea transport can be done by raising land.

 

4) Crafting.
No, no, no! (Sticks fingers in ears) LAAAA LAAAA LAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

I think that Elemental presently has an overabundance of magical items. It is good to implement many magical items, but when all champions are wearing them, they no longer feel special. Magical items should be unique to quests and monster loot, but even rarer than presently.

 

5) Independent City States.
Completely agree. No more need be said.

 

6) Lots of new tactical stuff.
Again I agree. That HOMM6 unit ability really does sound good. Let's steal it.
The problem with unit traits in Elemental is they are stat based. Perhaps they are fine like that from the perspective that they are not powerful, but they do not make my units feel unique. Perhaps we could split the traits into 2 categories: the weaker stat boost traits, and the more powerful non-stat changing trait like form HOMM6. A unit can be designed with 3 traits like it is done now, but only one from the non-stat changing category with the effect of giving that unit a role on the battlefield. I also wouldn't mind seeing some more abilities, like sunder armor, be applied to a weapon.

 

 

And someone needs to add 'mana' and 'golem' to Firefox's dictionary.

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July 31, 2012 3:42:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting razor436,
3) Naval Warfare.
Absolutely not. this is the last thing I would implement after a long list of other features.
To make things interesting, we would need several types of ships. Then we would need to create a bunch of roaming sea monsters and summonables, which would be cool, but a lot of work to implement and balance. I'd rather they invest the time in fleshing out land battles. Besides, sea transport can be done by raising land.

I disagree. Like HoMM Elemental is very hero, quest, and tactical map oriented. Thus it would make sense to implement a similar navy system. One with no combat ships only transports. Combat would just take place on deck when ships meet or encounter monsters. This would allow you to send champions out to explore, pick up oceanic goodie huts, do naval quests, and build maritime cities. You could then just add navy unit traits to allow players to specialize towards navies. This could be done fairly easily and would add a lot to the game in my opinion.

5) Independent city states. It is in my opinion a feature that Civ5 perfected. In E:wom there were minor factions but got removed until you could spend time developing them. Diplomacy comes into play, but also they are a great "in" for having special units or features, and thus greatly increases randomization(=replay) of games. Being allied to one minor faction means you can train special mounts. Allied to another = humanoid monsters won't attack you. One minor faction just sells potions. Another builds golems. They are conquerable, but can put up a good fight and you lose a bit of the bonus if they get conquered. They make demands every now and then - kill a monster, attack that sonofabitch, bring us food and so on.

I think bonuses like those would be better off as faction abilities or quests. They don't really justify the existence of city states. Also I don't see the city states fitting in to the lore, in Elemental civilization was destroyed. Maybe you could have refugee camps that sell goods and require players to perform quests in order to acquire them but not full cities.

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July 31, 2012 4:19:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I hope we can do dungeons/ cave/ labirinths in final version of FE. I love it in age of wonders(1).

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July 31, 2012 4:52:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting razor436,

3) Naval Warfare.
Absolutely not. this is the last thing I would implement after a long list of other features.
To make things interesting, we would need several types of ships. Then we would need to create a bunch of roaming sea monsters and summonables, which would be cool, but a lot of work to implement and balance. I'd rather they invest the time in fleshing out land battles. Besides, sea transport can be done by raising land.

I agree completely!              

I think grafting an element of Naval Warfare on to E:FE would be a total waste ... of resources, and of game uniqueness.  I think of the Elemental world as having poisoned seas.  I view this as an inherent part of the ruined world that we emerge as the successors to.  I don't think of it as an artificial limitation; but rather as a defining characteristic.  It is part and parcel of a world made almost uninhabitable, by the decades of magical warfare, and blood-thirsty/medieval/scorched-earth, warfare.  This just feels like a natural (and "right") part of the ruined world that exists at the beginning of E:FE. 

And (as razor436 rightly points out) it would be wasteful of resources to spend the necessary time/effort on a naval aspect, to do it right.  Harbors and infrastructure and transports and warships and naval tactics ... would lead to a need for a critical expansion of the games Artificial Intelligence (AI) ... as well as the art-work ... and memory usage.  On top of that, it might suggest the need for other islands, or other continents.  Heaven, forfend!   Down that road, we would be heading in the direction of one of the worst aspects, of the worst maps, in Civilization IV (just to name one obvious example).

It just isn't worth it; especially in a game that is already so feature-rich and feature-unique.  And even for the folks who do crave additional features, this almost certainly has to be at the bottom of the list, for most of us ... 

Leave  Elemental: Fallen Enchantress  as one of the few land-based 4X games, that doesn't have a crappy naval aspect, that has been poorly thrown in, just to muddy the waters and to "complexify" the game unneccessarily. 

In fact, preserve this bright measure of E:FE's uniqueness ! 

 

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July 31, 2012 8:21:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

I realize FE is still in development, but at this point you guys probably have the major features set in stone. Here are some things I feel is missing from FE, and thus really should go into the sequel. Or you could read it as a list of things missing to take the game from "good" to "great" at release.

1) Sieges. The cooler this is the better the game will be. Mid- and late-game are all about capturing cities (at least it is right now beta3) so it needs a properly epic format for it. A fight in front of a city just isn't it. My ideal siege format is Shogun 2 (cities starve while sieged, takes many strategic turns, can get reinforced meanwhile), but it'd be with much smaller maps for FE. If possible, and again this is a major feature, I would like the option to design my own castles partially, by placing arrow turrets, monster pits and traps on the map for my own castles (walls would always be the same for each type of castle). Spells and essence also play a huge part here. Castles are destructible, and there is accuracy reduction when line of sight is poor.

2) Caves, dungeons, other planes of existence. This would need to be a concept within the lore of the game obviously, but I know we have things like demon portals and other worlds (where the Titans came from). Basically, like other games have, you can leave the strategic map and travel into another strategic map - be it underground, into hell, a floating isle and so on. Secondary minor strategic maps filled with awesome. See Warlock: master of the arcane. Also this feels like the natural expansion for Wildlands.

3) Naval warfare. Personally, I hate it in computer games, but I can't imagine a top-of-the-line fantasy 4X game without it. It's a big chunk missing.

4) Crafting. This one is "extra seasoning". It is not needed to make a great game, but if done right it will make it even greater. Fairly straightforward, throw mana, crystal, metal and every other resource you can think of into a melting pot, see what comes out. Preferably you put in a "base" item like a plate helmet and the effects stack onto that. That creates the basic scaling system for crafting - you can make leather and such if you researched it, or a special plate helmet if you researched or found one normal. Crafted items should be randomized with a ton (100+) of fun special abilities, including being "cursed" with negative effects. Magical items could maybe be broken down into resources as well, if you research X. Special champions might increase your luck a little when crafting. Throwing an shard into the melting pot would be cool too.

5) Independent city states. It is in my opinion a feature that Civ5 perfected. In E:wom there were minor factions but got removed until you could spend time developing them. Diplomacy comes into play, but also they are a great "in" for having special units or features, and thus greatly increases randomization(=replay) of games. Being allied to one minor faction means you can train special mounts. Allied to another = humanoid monsters won't attack you. One minor faction just sells potions. Another builds golems. They are conquerable, but can put up a good fight and you lose a bit of the bonus if they get conquered. They make demands every now and then - kill a monster, attack that sonofabitch, bring us food and so on.

6) Lots of new tactical stuff. I know this is vague, but look at Might and Magic Heroes 6, it is pure candy in tactical battles. The basic unit for the Haven faction has a trait which makes the unit redirect 50% of all damage suffered by adjacent friendlies to itself. That trait alone is better (more interesting) than 90% of the traits in FE. That's just an example, but to me, the organic way forward for making units while keeping them designable is mutually exclusive traits. The traits would go into three categories: special actions (sunder armor, scare horses), defensive properties (fire resistance, regenerate in battle), utility (low wages, xp in cities)

As I can't seem to leave this beta alone, I'll offer my opinion to your comments and include chatter from other comments made aswell.....

#1) Sieges
I would sooner have tatical landscape for the combat maps instead of siege warefare....have some aspects like city walls, walls of fire, or moats included such that when battle occurs at a city, they are included in the map...with tatical effect. Same can go for roads.....should give movement bonus on a combat map. Also with hills, mountains, and forests; these common map types should be represented in the combat map and have bonuses/penalties applied to units that occupy the space.

In addition, magic is suppose to the the 'siege' warefare of the game. I'd sooner throw a fireball at a city wall instead of a catapult. I would also say that a world that is so heavily dependant on magic wouldn't necessarily focus their technilogical attention on siege works....though that statement is subjective as a fantasy world can be governed by pretty much anything. So, to that end, I do agree with razor436 in that it be possible to build additional types of city defense....magical towers and stuff like that to help give your city an edge when attacked by magic.

#2) Dimensions
I think this would over-complicate the game. Myrror in MoM was even a little too complicated. The fact that the two worlds were so rigidly separated gave distinct and unfair advantage to the sub-dwellers. I think the wildlands sufficiently cover 'pocket' dimensions, though I will agree that there is still work that needs to be done to them in order to better incorporate them into the game.

For starters, wandering monsters should be released from the wildland locations to serve several purposes: First it should increase the tension along the boarder and encourage races nearby to conquer them. Second, they should progress the game's story line in some way such that the player is encouraged to engage the wildlands sooner rather than later. Third, the scarcity of map space should drive all the nations to obtain as much as the wildlands as possible in order to push their empire's agenda.

#3) Naval Warefare
Being a realm of magic, naval warefare doesn't have to be limited to ships. All sorts of sea creatures and magical spells could be added to the game in order to expand the dynamics of naval warefare. The question is: to what end? The sea has no real importance. It's a space to be crossed that serves no other purpose than to baracade your opponents. Mountains do that already. Sea-lines do that too. Why complicate the matter further by widening that gap of conflict?

Instead, I prefer the approach at adding different barriers. 'Poision' waters as OrionM42 has already mentioned is an excellant idea. I'd expand that further and add lava flows, necrotic fumes, blinding light, etc. In fact.....don't you have a mod where that stuff is being done?? Maybe I'm preaching to the choir.

If I were to include naval warefare, I would only do it if there were further purpose to controlling the seas....whether it be magic nodes or quests or floating cities or ....well....I don't know....there isn't much when it comes to water.

#4) Crafting
Please refer to the 'shops' topic found elsewhere in these threads for my opinion on crafting. It doesn't exist. Instead, I think shops in cities should govern you ability to buy magical equipment and items. A variety of rpg limitations and restrictions are details in the post.

#5) Independant Cities
I never liked the colonial age of Civ 4 and I like the idependant city states even less. There is no innocence in the world of FE, at least there shouldn't be. Why have little nations scattered throughout that exist as only a single city? Useless.

Instead, I would have them as 'lesser nations'. All the same rights and privellages as one of the main nations with one critical difference: no sovereign. This means limited access (if any) to magic and in FE, that's going to greatly cripple there chances at being a major power. They can grow and expand as any main nation can....build troops, techs, etc....but without magic, there resources would naturally be directed elsewhere. I think this could very easily become an interesting 'mid game' mechanic to give the magic users some target pratice before attempting to obtain the goal of becoming #1 in the magic industry. 

#6) Tatical Stuff
Agreed. Mixed in with comments from point #1....though I do agree,, the more the dynamic the world, the better this game will become. 

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August 2, 2012 8:53:47 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting DsRaider,



Quoting razor436,
reply 42
3) Naval Warfare.
Absolutely not. this is the last thing I would implement after a long list of other features.
To make things interesting, we would need several types of ships. Then we would need to create a bunch of roaming sea monsters and summonables, which would be cool, but a lot of work to implement and balance. I'd rather they invest the time in fleshing out land battles. Besides, sea transport can be done by raising land.


I disagree. Like HoMM Elemental is very hero, quest, and tactical map oriented. Thus it would make sense to implement a similar navy system. One with no combat ships only transports. Combat would just take place on deck when ships meet or encounter monsters. This would allow you to send champions out to explore, pick up oceanic goodie huts, do naval quests, and build maritime cities. You could then just add navy unit traits to allow players to specialize towards navies. This could be done fairly easily and would add a lot to the game in my opinion.


Be very lame if you only had combat on the deck of the ship. There should be full scale navel tactical combat just like the land combat.

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August 2, 2012 9:00:33 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting OrionM42,



Quoting razor436,
reply 42

3) Naval Warfare.
Absolutely not. this is the last thing I would implement after a long list of other features.
To make things interesting, we would need several types of ships. Then we would need to create a bunch of roaming sea monsters and summonables, which would be cool, but a lot of work to implement and balance. I'd rather they invest the time in fleshing out land battles. Besides, sea transport can be done by raising land.




I agree completely!              

I think grafting an element of Naval Warfare on to E:FE would be a total waste ... of resources, and of game uniqueness.  I think of the Elemental world as having poisoned seas.  I view this as an inherent part of the ruined world that we emerge as the successors to.  I don't think of it as an artificial limitation; but rather as a defining characteristic.  It is part and parcel of a world made almost uninhabitable, by the decades of magical warfare, and blood-thirsty/medieval/scorched-earth, warfare.  This just feels like a natural (and "right") part of the ruined world that exists at the beginning of E:FE. 

And (as razor436 rightly points out) it would be wasteful of resources to spend the necessary time/effort on a naval aspect, to do it right.  Harbors and infrastructure and transports and warships and naval tactics ... would lead to a need for a critical expansion of the games Artificial Intelligence (AI) ... as well as the art-work ... and memory usage.  On top of that, it might suggest the need for other islands, or other continents.  Heaven, forfend!   Down that road, we would be heading in the direction of one of the worst aspects, of the worst maps, in Civilization IV (just to name one obvious example).

It just isn't worth it; especially in a game that is already so feature-rich and feature-unique.  And even for the folks who do crave additional features, this almost certainly has to be at the bottom of the list, for most of us ... 

Leave  Elemental: Fallen Enchantress  as one of the few land-based 4X games, that doesn't have a crappy naval aspect, that has been poorly thrown in, just to muddy the waters and to "complexify" the game unneccessarily. 

In fact, preserve this bright measure of E:FE's uniqueness ! 

 

Poison Seas....Really?  Sorry but I strongly disagree. I would like a lot of resources put into Naval warfare in this game. It is really lame to have all this ocean and the only way across it is Raise Land (pretty stupid.) I'm not saying take away raise land in fact I like it but it should not be the only way to cross the ocean.

Also the ocean should have dangers to overcome as well. This game is in need of naval warfare to make it compete with other 4x games.

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August 2, 2012 10:07:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bellack,
Also the ocean sould have dangers to overcome as well. This game is in need of naval warfare to make it compete with other 4x games.

I dont think so, I have no reason or urge to have a seperate unit system for the sea, id much rather see a little less sea and have naval stuff ignored. To me it just becomes a tedious 2nd part of the game, where I cant use my heroes, and other focuses, besides they'd have to put up a dousin techs around boating techs for it to advance "properly" (like the current unit system advances).

I would much rather have that dousin of techs, and the 50 ish units to be designed (ok that number is made up, but that would make for a good amount of random sea monster trash), put into the land part of the game, to make it even more interested.

Honestly and personally I would like myself to see some more abilities that are powerfull and interact with combat in interesting ways.

Sincerely
Kongdej

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August 2, 2012 10:20:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I want the sieges, naval warfare, independents, and more tactical options (provided the AI can handle those in quick combat)

 

Don't want crafting and other planes.

 

I also want Soul Calibur-quality customization of heroes graphically.

 

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August 2, 2012 2:25:05 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I agree with razor 436's opinions for the most part. 

I think the need for balance and enjoyable, repeatable game-play trumps implementing every possible addition that's been implemented in a 4X game before. I am sure Naval warfare, aerial warfare, instances, an incredibly complex and deep crafting system and more "could" be added. But, not everything is going to add to the final package (which I think is already outstanding). 

1) Over-involved sieges are a drag to me, not epic. The game itself already has an epic feel to it. I do like the idea of unique city tactics maps to make the city fights more interesting. 

2) Dimensions is over complication and can always be added later. 

3) Naval warfare has always seems like a big random mess to me in 4x games. I really think the simplification of travel (no aerial, no water) and the terra-forming spells make the movement strategy excellent the way it is.

4) Please no. As much as I love crafting, I already find myself spending more time that I want managing inventories between champions. 

5) nice idea. 

6) nice idea. 

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