It's nice to see Pirates being held accountable.

By on November 5, 2010 8:52:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

ZehDon

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Jammie Thomas-Rasset, a single mother of four, was found liable by a jury on Wednesday of copyright infringement for using KaZaA peer-to-peer file-sharing network to download the songs over the internet.

She was ordered to pay $US62,500 ($A62,303.74) for each of the 24 songs, a total of $US1.5 million ($A1.5 million) dollars.


Oh, shit, did I say being held accountable?  I mean having their lives ruined.  Haha, my bad.

$US62,500.00 per song.  I doubt the bands that recorded those 24 tracks made that much money off of their songs, excluding Concert ticket sales, of course.  I'm all for paying people for their hard work, however I'm also for letting the punishment fit the crime.  Placing someone under so much debt that they'll never outlive it doesn't seem like a fitting punishment to me.

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November 5, 2010 9:01:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

lol i would have to pay 1.5 trilion

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November 5, 2010 9:03:37 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Yes, I agree that the amount is way too high, but common sense would have told a person not to do something illegal in the first place.  She will never be able to pay them, so they probably won't be getting any recompense at all.

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November 5, 2010 9:12:04 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Tom, her wages, etc. could be attached to the point where her life would be made totally unbearable. Yes, she should have known better. Yes, it's a harsh penalty, meant to deter.

She should enter into a negotiation process with the injured parties.

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November 5, 2010 9:16:52 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting DrJBHL,
Tom, her wages, etc. could be attached to the point where her life would be made totally unbearable. Yes, she should have known better. Yes, it's a harsh penalty, meant to deter.

She should enter into a negotiation process with the injured parties.

 

Its like Capital punishment. As a deterrent it is a complete failure. This is not going to stop anyone from pirating music.

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November 5, 2010 9:33:40 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I feel there are several issues here that get co-mingled in all the posturing by the various "interested' parties.  Yes, jammie violated both the law, and a strict understanding of stealing.  She is being held accountable.  She should pay the going rate for the intellectual property she stole, and some sort of reasonable fine, community service, or whatever.  And that is as it should be.

However, there is a grave injustice built into our system of fines.  When a millionaire speeds and gets ticket for 100.00, that is loose change - trivial.  Fine one of the working poor the same amount - and you have taken 1/2 their wages for the week.  Totally disproportionate "justice."  Our system of fines need to be based on the violators real net worth, etc., to be truly fair. Otherwise, the fine, for the wealthy, is merely a nuisance fee they pay - for having been caught. 

Also, in what context is copying 'intellectual property' theft?  A song broadcast over the (public) airwaves is recorded, and played at home.  Is that theft?  You record the current episode of your fav show.  You play it later.  Is that theft?  It will be soon, when the broadcast / cable industry figure out how to apply the software license mechanism to movies, videos, and music.  Soon...

The recording company(s)  (four of them, I believe) have indicated they are not going to demand the multi million dollar settlement from jammie.   To do so would be tantamount to indentured servitude.  They are not stupid.  The music industry is looking for, found, and created, a set of legal precedents to put teeth into enforcing their rights.  This is also as it should be.  Now, lets see if they do the right thing with their new found teeth.  Forget the small fry, and go after the people who make money off this form of theft: the "sharing"  sites made money- so nail them.  Have they?  China and Russia (and I am sure other nations, including usa) have thriving dvd - video industries selling illegal copies of music, movies, etc.  Will this extend to those 'organizations' who do have deep pockets? 

Who needs movies when real life is so full of ....

my three cents...

 

 

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November 5, 2010 9:34:38 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

^ I agree.

*edit for clarification: timing caused this to be unclear. It is directed to Scharchuk's comment.

*edit 2: I also agree that she could have spread the pirated goods further, so a fine is in order, I just think the size of it is a bit over the top, but that's only my opinion and I will not argue or belabor the point.

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November 5, 2010 9:43:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In Sweden, for criminal acts, we use day-fines extensively. However, it is important to keep in mind that in this woman's case, is not only a criminal act, but she has also violated someone's rights and they are seeking to be reimbursed for that. This amount cannot possibly be based on the woman's income, as the company is the one losing out when the material is shared with others (for example - an unemployed person destroys a building worth hundreds of millions - obviously reimbursement should not be based on the person's income).

I think the system, however, is set up wrong in the USA, where the estimated loss is obviously blown up to insane proportions.

 

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November 5, 2010 9:47:12 AM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

If she was smart, she would've just stolen the CDs from the store......jeez.

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November 5, 2010 9:50:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ElanaAhova,


Also, in what context is copying 'intellectual property' theft?  A song broadcast over the (public) airwaves is recorded, and played at home.  Is that theft?  You record the current episode of your fav show.  You play it later.  Is that theft?  It will be soon, when the broadcast / cable industry figure out how to apply the software license mechanism to movies, videos, and music.  Soon...

 

There is a slight, but nevertheless very important distinction to be made here. When you record a song from the radio, it goes on your tape or whatever and that's it. But on a peer-to-peer network (like KaZaa), you automatically share the song you download, basically becoming a distributor of the pirated song. This is how P2P networks function, they download into a shared folder, and anyone on the network can search for it and download it from you. BitTorrent is the same way, clients generally automatically upload to anyone else downloading. In many cases of course these can be disabled, but honestly, if she was using KaZaa of all things, what are the chances she knew how? If KaZaa actually allows you to disable automatic sharing.

As such, if one song is worth $1 to buy, but she left KaZaa on and helped distribute it to 30,000 other people, the actual damage done isn't $1, but $30,000.

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November 5, 2010 9:56:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

its nice to life in a normal country where you can do with your internet what you want

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November 5, 2010 10:10:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Annatar11,
As such, if one song is worth $1 to buy, but she left KaZaa on and helped distribute it to 30,000 other people, the actual damage done isn't $1, but $30,000.

A good point, however this doesn't, and in fact never, entered into the calculation of the fine nor for the crime for which she is to pay it.  A presumption of innocence still stands as the corner stone of the Western World's legal system; fining someone for possibly distributing music without being able to accurately detail exactly what, and how many, was shared flies in the face of this.

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November 5, 2010 10:16:32 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

But have you seen the court documents that show that it never factored into anything? How do you know it was never brought up in court proceedings?

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November 5, 2010 1:38:28 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

A criminal being brought to justice. I don't even know why this is being discussed.

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November 5, 2010 1:43:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You steal and get caught, too bad.  I don't have a single illegal download song, game or movie.  Not hard, you are not entitles to things you are not willing to pay for. 

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November 5, 2010 1:45:28 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Quoting Fuzzy Logic,
A criminal being brought to justice. I don't even know why this is being discussed.

I have to agree with Fuzzy. 

It can be discussed whether or not the punishment fit the crime but the jury did come up with the decision.

Still goes back to 'If you can't do the time (in this case pay the fine), don't do the crime.' 

 

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November 5, 2010 5:48:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I love this story.  She apparently shows ZERO remorse or intention to settle with RIAA.  I don't see this story as have as much to do with "justice" as it has to do with technology management.  Music is now free.  "How immoral of you!" you might say.  Okay call me immoral (or whoever does this sort of thing) - the reality is that music is now free.  Well almost.  It's still possible to catch someone and accuse them of freely distributing their Barry Manilow collection, and have a court issue a verdict that they owe somebody millions of dollars.  It wasn't actually Barry Manilow, but relatively old, non-mainstream music.

I love this woman.  She is apparently completely unphased by the ridiculous blame-game being played by the RIAA.  They are blaming her for their own technological (and public relations) incompetence.

[This is hardly different than banks trying to place the onus on the consumer for preventing fraud (which is misnamed "identity theft" just to reinforce this false notion that I have some sort of responsibility for protecting a bank from people who commit fraud).  But that's another subject.]

It's gotta be frustrating, when the court system thinks they have power to make people behave a certain way, but the technology has gotten so completely out of hand that such enforcement becomes a joke.  And that's also why I think Stardock is pretty damned cool for relying and promoting a fan/producer relationship rather than taking the heavy hand that RIAA seems to be doing.  They are just digging their own grave with the attitude that they have.

I believe there is a higher law of common sense which often is violated by the legal system.  And when such violations take place, people suffer at the hand of greed or power plays.  Everyone has this higher law of common sense deep inside of them - and it resonates when those violations take place.  It's too bad many people try to ignore it and shrug it off "well that's just the law", because I think a part of their soul dies when they behave like that.

 

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November 5, 2010 6:12:06 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

Just picked this up from MSN.com:

"The Recording Industry Association of America has said it found Thomas-Rasset shared more than 1,700 songs on the file-sharing site Kazaa, but it sued over 24 of them. RIAA spokeswoman Cara Duckworth said the association made several attempts to settle with Thomas-Rasset, at first for $5,000, but Thomas-Rasset refused."

Apparantly, huminado she thought music was free also.

It's gotta be frustrating, when the court system thinks they have power to make people behave a certain way

No frustration. It does.

They are just digging their own grave with the attitude that they have.

No, they are participating in a legal manner in our economic system. Thomas-Rasset is a thief who has the nerve to think she can take the work of others with impunity and never pay for it. She's learning (albeit slowly) that she's wrong. Her "justification"? Paying would take food out of her children's mouths. I've seen her photo, and she certainly hasn't starved to feed them.

I believe there is a higher law of common sense which often is violated by the legal system. And when such violations take place, people suffer at the hand of greed or power plays. Everyone has this higher law of common sense deep inside of them - and it resonates when those violations take place. It's too bad many people try to ignore it and shrug it off "well that's just the law", because I think a part of their soul dies when they behave like that.

You postulate things for which there is no proof and then argue a tautology.

Bottom line? She stole and she will pay. Software, music, video/media....all are someone's intellectual property and espousing views against that only serves to advocate the destruction of sites like this.

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November 5, 2010 6:17:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

"The move away from litigation represented a major shift in strategy forthe music industry group, which had filed lawsuits against some 35,000 people for online music piracy since 2003."

 

35k since 2003? Pfffft, they aren't trying that hard. But yeah, ridiculous punishment for the equivalent of shoplifting.

 

People still use Kazaa?

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November 5, 2010 6:22:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't believe in property.

 

There are relationships.  There are actions.  But property is an idea someone thought up, most people accepted, and only remains true insomuch as they continue to accept it and it can be reinforced.  Once it can't be reinforced, the idea fails.

 

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November 5, 2010 6:29:18 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

I've just got to say "reasonableness".  I long ago tired of the ridiculous amounts awarded by the legal system.  Period.

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November 5, 2010 6:45:11 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

I don't believe in property.

Where'd you say you live? I'll be right over. How did you buy the computer you're typing on? How would you feel if someone entered your home uninvited (he doesn't believe in locks and doors) and took whatever he wanted?

Is there no concept of value either, then? Even in a barter economy that exists. The fact is that people want different things for different reasons at different times. That created a marketplace. There is no "innate" value to anything. It's all about what you're willing to pay for something: From freedom to fried eggs.

"T.A.N.S.T.A.A.F.L." (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) - R.A.Heinlein, "Farnham's Freehold".

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November 5, 2010 7:08:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes - there is value in action.  You work hard to create something and that work has value - because people recognize the value immediately and intrinsically without anyone needing to explain it to them.  They either see utility in what you've created, or they might find a pleasant experience in it.

Which creates a relationship with those people - they are willing to deal with you then in exchange for your hard work.

This is a fundamental law - it doesn't need a court system to create it or enforce it.  Nor does it need any idea of possessions or things - people relate to each other as defined by the work that they do.

That will not change regardless of what technologies are available.

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November 5, 2010 7:22:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

What about all the work all the artists and the people at their labels put in? Does that not count as "value in action"? What are you trading with them, when you are trampling on their rights?

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November 5, 2010 7:28:33 PM from WinCustomize Forums WinCustomize Forums

they are willing to deal with you then in exchange for your hard work.

As in pay you. A relationship with that person is fine, but bread, butter, and utilities cost money. The person will not pay me because he likes me but rather because he needs/wants what I have enough to exchange valuta for it.

This is a fundamental law - it doesn't need a court system to create it or enforce it.

Perhaps, but we need courts to prevent open warfare in the streets to resolve disputes and decide law. Courts are not legislative in our system (despite political rhetoric claiming otherwise).

people relate to each other as defined by the work that they do.

Not exclusively. Family members do not relate to each other based on the work they do, rather who they are for each other.

That will not change regardless of what technologies are available.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "never", as we haven't seen the technologies of the future yet. Clearly the technologies of the past changed and shaped our history. The present is shaping the future...also, I believe these relationships are complex entities shaped and forged by not only our genetics but everything that surrounds us...economy, technology, etc.

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November 5, 2010 8:03:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

somewhere i read an interview of some guy, (napster founder?) that he believed the war on music piracy was lost... and i guess i have to agree with him. the music industry needs a new business model, rather than bludgeon people into the old one.

i buy music i can afford, and pirate songs i listen to only rarely. (usually i don't even pirate, just use music provider which has ads to pay music company).  what i can't stand is charging extra money for video game soundtracks, buying the game should entitle you to the sound in it.

google found it:

http://www.techspot.com/news/40828-napster-cofounder-war-on-music-piracy-is-a-failure.html

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