Discussion on the direction of the Elemental "community"

By on September 6, 2010 4:37:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

James009D

Join Date 01/2005
+67

Elemental used to be fun. And no, I'm not talking about the game. I still find the game fun and enjoyable and look forward to it's future.

Unfortunately, I'm talking about the forums and this community. Recently they've just de-evolved into a community of hostility, second guessing, and whining. This community used to be fun, collaborative, enjoyable, and friendly.

We also used to trust Stardock, the staff, and Brad. Frankly, I still do. Stardock was one of the ONLY companies who'd give you almost daily updates on what they're doing and the direction of their development. Today Brad tells us he's going to look at tweaking things and adding more systems for engine, he also shares with us that his favorite TV show is Avatar.

First thing we do is get defensive, jump all over him, and TELL him what to do. Now we've probably lost the ability to read up on the Dev Logs, Journals, and to hear about what the developers are doing with Elemental. Great!

That's not fun guys and it's going to ruin Elemental for everyone. Nobody wants to work on a game that isn't supported or encouraged by the community and where they can't find enjoyment in making it. I know Stardock is a business but it's also a personal project for Brad and, believe it or not, Brad is a human being.

If we ruin this for Brad then Elemental is just that, ruined. It doesn't do us any good if you post that you hate him or don't trust him. And, honestly, posting your ridiculously complex re-designs where they'd have to rebuild the game from the ground up are also unhelpful, try modding and you'll see why. If you REALLY don't like Elemental right now then just take a break. Go away for a while...

You angry kids need to back off. It's getting old and isn't for for those of us who want to support the game and enjoy the community we once had.

Some of you really don't understand what it's like in real life. You don't understand what it's like to work in the real world. You jump and attack any sort of authority because, "Hey, this is the internet and I have free speech!". Unfortunately, this is just showing your poor character and lack of experience. If you REALLY want Stardock to feel your hurt then return the product and don't buy another one, that'll hurt them in the pocketbook which hurts more then posting an angry rant about design on these forums.

I'm asking for some restraint, some compassion, and some better judgment. Each and every action you take has ramifications and consequences. Think before you act. Consider what you are saying and how you are saying it. Lastly, a little respect goes a long way.

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September 6, 2010 4:42:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Face it we live in a selfish world of instant gratification and the screaming cry of "me" over the more pleasant undertones of patience and cooperation.

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September 6, 2010 4:50:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

All communities devolve into this over time.  It is the nature of the internet and is the reason many, I daresay nearly all, the big name developers out there do not interact directly with their game's community.  It is very hard to please everyone and when a launch has as much drama surrounding it as Elemental's has, people feel even more inclined to make their voices be heard.

 

As a patient owner of the Elemental War of Magic Limited Edition, my advice to Stardock and to Brad is to back off from doing dev journals and forum posts until they have concrete changes in mind that are well thought out, tested, and will not be changed.  Right now, the community feels like Stardock does not know what to do or where to go with the game.  This is causing them to jump all over any posts that are even the least bit vague or theoretical and demand specific answers.  People are complaining about changes that aren't even made yet. This is causing the developers to become upset, or in the worst cases, disheartened to the point where they stop caring about the project at all.

I recommend that Stardock silently gather data from the boards and reviews, figure out what they want and what the people want, and then make the necessary changes.  Once those are made, tell us what they will be and make it clear that it is not up for debate.  While I willingly admit I am not thrilled with the game as it stands right now, I am personally content to sit on it for awhile and go along for the ride.  I have faith that things will turn out well in the end if the community will just allow it to happen.

 

 

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September 6, 2010 4:51:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Precisely, but this world of "instant gratification" is to a fault and, frankly, it just doesn't have to be that way if people use some restraint and respect. Secondly, the community didn't used to be like this and it doesn't have to continue.

Quoting Kardiophylax,
...
As a patient owner of the Elemental War of Magic Limited Edition, my advice to Stardock and to Brad is to back off from doing dev journals and forum posts until they have concrete changes in mind that are well thought out, tested, and will not be changed.  Right now, the community feels like Stardock does not know what to do or where to go with the game.  This is causing them to jump all over any posts that are even the least bit vague or theoretical and demand specific answers.  People are complaining about changes that aren't even made yet. This is causing the developers to become upset, or in the worst cases, disheartened to the point where they stop caring about the project at all.

I recommend that Stardock silently gather data from the boards and reviews, figure out what they want and what the people want, and then make the necessary changes.  Once those are made, tell us what they will be and make it clear that it is not up for debate.  While I willingly admit I am not thrilled with the game as it stands right now, I am personally content to sit on it for awhile and go along for the ride.  I have faith that things will turn out well in the end if the community will just allow it to happen.
 

Good advice Kardiophlax.

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September 6, 2010 4:51:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Leave Bradley alone!  HE'S A HUMAN! LEAVE HIM ALONE! You're lucky he even programmed for you!

 

Anyone that has a problem with him you deal with me, because he is not well right now.

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September 6, 2010 5:07:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Kardiophylax,
All communities devolve into this over time.  It is the nature of the internet and is the reason many, I daresay nearly all, the big name developers out there do not interact directly with their game's community.

I'm afraid that the sad truth here. The more developers share with the community, the more the community feels entitled and expects their opinion to matter. In our case, things got totally disproportionate.

SD, please continue to talk to your community and keep listening to it. But please do what it must to keep expectations realistic. After dropping names like Myth, X-Com, Master of Magic and what have you, there was no way the game would not be disappointing for one reason or another. Regardless of its qualities, Elemental could not be all these games.

 

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September 6, 2010 5:07:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I wouldn't worry overly. I think over the next few weeks stress levels will begin to die down on all sides and some of the worse offenders will move on to their next internet drama Elemental and its community will flourish, just need a bit of patience.

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September 6, 2010 5:07:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Because Frogboy asked to move on, I'll pass the excellent opportunity to flame and... move on. (so you cannot say that I don't try ) Anyway, when the dust settles, Stardock will be still here. Some of us too. (keeping posting privileges )

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September 6, 2010 5:07:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I disagree that we should all be praising them for this game. I come from the school where if you dont get any answers right on a test you fail the class, you dont a slap on the back and you get told to better next time. Hell below 70% was failing grade for me.

In there own words they said they dropped the ball huge, people are getting laid off because of this.

And all the suggestions I see on here are just that suggestions ideas, can people not voice them? there not saying do this or your an idiot.

If stardock wanted to see these complaints go away, they need to adress specifics on how there going to revamp the game. are tactictal battles and spells going to overhauled or not, or is just were getting a mana pool? Are factions going to be redone so there is more diversity in playing them. etc. right now we dont know if there just going to make it stable or call it day. becuase while they supported gal civ2 and sins, they both sold very very well.

This game has  lot of glaring problems in my opnion and and a lot of other peoples and I have to admit I trust that stardock is going to  look at them and revamp it. But that doesnt mean I am not going to keep pointing out flaws bugs and give my suggestion

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September 6, 2010 5:08:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well said James for you.

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September 6, 2010 5:08:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I for one enjoyed his dev posts....I really don't want them to stop.

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September 6, 2010 5:09:56 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Rune_74,
I for one enjoyed his dev posts....I really don't want them to stop.

We all do. It's just that some of us would like them to be a little more... factual.

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September 6, 2010 5:10:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If i was Stardock now, i would just back off of the Forums like any other company does.

Just post patch notes and leave the boards until all those haters get bored. Sort/lock/delete useless threads like usual.

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September 6, 2010 5:13:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Seboss,



Quoting Rune_74,
reply 10
I for one enjoyed his dev posts....I really don't want them to stop.


We all do. It's just that some of us would like them to be a little more... factual.

 

Um, and you know what the facts are opposed to what they write?  Curious response there.

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September 6, 2010 5:17:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

i agree completely, so tired of reading peoples emotional reactions to elemental. id say all of us who stuck through the betas, or even those who didn't but followed the development closely, experienced the same disappointment. describing the sinking feelings, the optimism followed by dismay, has gotten a bit redundant. at this point we all need to understand whats done is done. i still like stardock, and either i or my boyfriend still play elemental every night. i do get excited to see a new dev journal, if nothing else its nice to hear the ideas bouncing around in frogboys head. even if they are not implemented. furthermore, i agree with what op mentioned about the tone on these boards. this is the only place i even post (using bfs account hehe), as most other forums are filled with.. well you know where im going with that. so all i can do is to appeal to any one who will listen, take it easy its just a game. it does no good to get all huffy about some thing that can no longer be controlled. yes we all payed good money for it, but we didn't design it. and so we can do one of two things now, try to return it, or dont. continually griping about it will get us nothing but an annoyed froggy!

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September 6, 2010 5:19:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting pmaura,
I disagree that we should all be praising them for this game. I come from the school where if you dont get any answers right on a test you fail the class, you dont a slap on the back and you get told to better next time. Hell below 70% was failing grade for me.

In there own words they said they dropped the ball huge, people are getting laid off because of this.

And all the suggestions I see on here are just that suggestions ideas, can people not voice them? there not saying do this or your an idiot.

If stardock wanted to see these complaints go away, they need to adress specifics on how there going to revamp the game. are tactictal battles and spells going to overhauled or not, or is just were getting a mana pool? Are factions going to be redone so there is more diversity in playing them. etc. right now we dont know if there just going to make it stable or call it day. becuase while they supported gal civ2 and sins, they both sold very very well.

This game has  lot of glaring problems in my opnion and and a lot of other peoples and I have to admit I trust that stardock is going to  look at them and revamp it. But that doesnt mean I am not going to keep pointing out flaws bugs and give my suggestion

 

He's obviously not talking about people giving suggestions. The problem is that every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he knows how a game should be done. The truth is, most people do not know how a game should be done or how difficult it is to program. Are you familiar with the engine? Do you know what it is capable of? You know very little and yet assume too much (not you in particular, I mean those who think they know what they are talking about) Offering suggestions in a positive way is helpful because the devs can look at it and decide on what is feasible with the technology they have and what will work. We do not have access to all the information and should not be constantly second guessing and over analyzing things. There are issues with the game to which the devs have admitted and are working on the issues. They read the forums, they read our suggestions but just because someone posts on how the game should be doesn't mean it is something that is possible to be done or in their image of what should be done. I like the game and I have a feeling that it will get much better with more work.

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September 6, 2010 5:22:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Rune_74,
Um, and you know what the facts are opposed to what they write?  Curious response there.

I never suggested devs are lying nor that I know better than they do, and I don't appreciate that you insinuate that.

I think the devs journals can be very colorful but sometimes not so informative. The latest dev journal is a good example. The Avatar comparison - while it may tingle in a good way the anime fans out there - is not very enlightening on what Brad has on his mind regarding tactical combat and the AI. Is he thinking about more buff/debuff, flight, cloning, teleportation? Kimonos? Will the AI use more hit n'run tactics? That's the kind stuff I'd like to know about.

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September 6, 2010 5:26:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

OP - Well said!

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September 6, 2010 5:28:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Seboss,



Quoting Rune_74,
reply 13
Um, and you know what the facts are opposed to what they write?  Curious response there.


Drop the strawman argument right now mister. I never suggested devs are lying nor that I know better than they do.

I think the devs journals can be very colorful but sometimes not so informative. The latest dev journal is a good example. The Avatar comparison - while it may tingle in a good way the anime fans out there - is not very enlightening on what Brad has on his mind regarding tactical combat and the AI. Is he thinking about more buff/debuff, flight, cloning, teleportation? Kimonos? Will the AI use more hit n'run tactics? That's the kind stuff I'd like to know about.

 

Ahhh ok, mister;)  Well then ask...he literally answers the questions if you want to know more.  He also usually goes into more details when doing a post that one was really short.

I got what he meant in having the wizards lobing spells back and forth(at least thats what I got from it) from Avatar(my son watches that, I have never) 

 

I think for the forseeable future they are basically going to be over sensitive about posts, ca't say I blame them.

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September 6, 2010 5:28:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I can understand what your saying Seboss, but I don't think the journals were ever intended to be that way. Think of when your doing a journal. It is more of an account of your day, your feelings, etc. It is not an informative step by step documentation of something.

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September 6, 2010 5:29:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So, you decided to help the forums evolve by adding a Troll-post?  Albeit a troll post that is pro-SD and Brad but a troll/flame war post all the same.

If people actually discuss ELEMENTAL and its aspects the forum will EVOLVE.

You are part of the problem OP.

 

J

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September 6, 2010 5:34:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Unfortunately that is the state of forums today--I believe the term venomous was used on PC Gamer in a podcast. However I have noticed that some of the negative ones are claiming that they are asking for refunds and HOPEFULLY will be leaving the forums. Stardock forums are noted for having more mature and serious players. I support the poster and looking forward to discussing the game and its future. Cheers to all who are here to play the game without the whine.

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September 6, 2010 5:37:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

it is not a troll post, he is trying to get people to be CIVIL and have a good conversation about mechanics, you, however are now trolling revjwh

 

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September 6, 2010 5:56:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wow, a community meltdown...

not sure how to interpret this.

 

We get, possibly, one of the best TBS games of all time, and everyone's acting like it's curtains?

 

Well, I tell you one thing, I like this game, but I am not going to act like I am walking on egg shells when I post.  I'll keep making constructive suggestions, and let them know what I think of their changes.  Either way, what I post or where I post suggestions ..that's all they are, suggestions to be taken or left.  If suggestions somehow hit a nerve, honestly, that's not my problem.  I supported this game with a full price purchase.  I didn't wait for a sale, or special deal or the bottom to just plain drop out of the price.  And, I intend on continuing to support this game if it stays even close to as good as it is now ... personally, I can't see how it couldn't get better.

 

That's about all I got to say about that.

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September 6, 2010 5:57:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting BlackRainZ,
I can understand what your saying Seboss, but I don't think the journals were ever intended to be that way. Think of when your doing a journal. It is more of an account of your day, your feelings, etc. It is not an informative step by step documentation of something.

Yes, I realize that. But it's only natural that people read too much into these journals. And either it's intentional or not, the devs journal are uber effective hype machine, for the best and worst. Maybe these posts should get a more down to the fact tone if SD don't want readers to go nuts on them.

Or just wait for things to get a little less emotional

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September 6, 2010 6:03:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree in principle with the OP. I have myself lost it a time or two, not out of a desire to flame, but in frustration. I was so excited and looked past some of the posts that it wasn't ready yet, trusting StarDock was holding back some things at it was really just about polish at the end and they were all over it. From the reviews, obviously not quite. The 1.07 should have been the zero day, but even that still has problems.

Look, most of us preordered because we were excited and love SD for their work, honesty, and support. Perhaps at times those that have been in the beta process have turned a bit of a blind eye over time, they accepted things they complained about in the past. Think of the frog staying in the pot of water as the temperature slowly increases. (Sorry Frogboy, that was the analogy that came to mind )

Many of us are willing to give SD a break and wait, but truth be told, much of the criticism is valid. Some new users coming in have their POV and are upset. That is their right as they paid for something that isn't quite there yet in their opinion. Now, those that say it is unplayable, etc. are off base. It is playable, but perhaps not in the way those users expected.

We don't know the inner workings of what happened, but I think we can all agree Elemental isn't quite what we expected/hoped. If you look back at the dev journals, there are "It is going to be awesome" with "the mod tools will made me look stupid as you guys will build cooler worlds" For clarity, all quotes are paraphrases of what was said in the journals. If anyone can fix this mess, it is Stardock.

Mostly I feel bad for Brad and obviously the team. This was Brad's baby and perhaps he blinded himself a bit as to the state of it as well some of us who were beta testers. I can't imagine working on something over so many years and having it received the way it was. Sometimes is very lonely at the top. So, keep your chin up SD and Brad, have one on me

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