Discussion on the direction of the Elemental "community"

By on September 6, 2010 4:37:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

James009D

Join Date 01/2005
+67

Elemental used to be fun. And no, I'm not talking about the game. I still find the game fun and enjoyable and look forward to it's future.

Unfortunately, I'm talking about the forums and this community. Recently they've just de-evolved into a community of hostility, second guessing, and whining. This community used to be fun, collaborative, enjoyable, and friendly.

We also used to trust Stardock, the staff, and Brad. Frankly, I still do. Stardock was one of the ONLY companies who'd give you almost daily updates on what they're doing and the direction of their development. Today Brad tells us he's going to look at tweaking things and adding more systems for engine, he also shares with us that his favorite TV show is Avatar.

First thing we do is get defensive, jump all over him, and TELL him what to do. Now we've probably lost the ability to read up on the Dev Logs, Journals, and to hear about what the developers are doing with Elemental. Great!

That's not fun guys and it's going to ruin Elemental for everyone. Nobody wants to work on a game that isn't supported or encouraged by the community and where they can't find enjoyment in making it. I know Stardock is a business but it's also a personal project for Brad and, believe it or not, Brad is a human being.

If we ruin this for Brad then Elemental is just that, ruined. It doesn't do us any good if you post that you hate him or don't trust him. And, honestly, posting your ridiculously complex re-designs where they'd have to rebuild the game from the ground up are also unhelpful, try modding and you'll see why. If you REALLY don't like Elemental right now then just take a break. Go away for a while...

You angry kids need to back off. It's getting old and isn't for for those of us who want to support the game and enjoy the community we once had.

Some of you really don't understand what it's like in real life. You don't understand what it's like to work in the real world. You jump and attack any sort of authority because, "Hey, this is the internet and I have free speech!". Unfortunately, this is just showing your poor character and lack of experience. If you REALLY want Stardock to feel your hurt then return the product and don't buy another one, that'll hurt them in the pocketbook which hurts more then posting an angry rant about design on these forums.

I'm asking for some restraint, some compassion, and some better judgment. Each and every action you take has ramifications and consequences. Think before you act. Consider what you are saying and how you are saying it. Lastly, a little respect goes a long way.

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September 6, 2010 7:24:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
The level of "Brad stalking" has reached an unbearable level
Those who do that are idjits.  "An insult from an idjit is a compliment, a compliment from an idjit is an insult"

I can't change idjits into not-idjits.  I can, however, change how I react to them.  When idjits pester me I take it as a good thing -- a badge of 'honor' that I got to them.  That turns a possible negative into a positive.

Positive sure as heck beats negative -- this is one instance where 'balance' is over-rated 

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September 6, 2010 7:26:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Rune_74,

See, everyone knows it needs alot of work...we just get tired of every thread having apost telling us that...

 

It's beating a dead horse.

You have to look at it from all sides. It's also beating a dead horse reading post after post of how great the game is. The game has problems. On that everyone agrees. So it's time for both sides to stop. It's time for the diehard zealots to stop attacking anyone who is critical or has a legitmate complaint. It's also time for hate messages to stop. Constructive criticism is okay. Outright hatred such as telling Brad to commit suicide is not. One is just as bad as the other. Wouldn't you agree?

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September 6, 2010 7:29:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,

Quoting Nick-Danger, reply 36<snip> we're in shock and we're mourning. <snip>  Let's not over-react <snip>
 But you are...
How so?

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September 6, 2010 7:29:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting wayninja,
It's very strange.  The tone of the OP and thread feels like we are potential consumers clamoring for a release and simply have no patience for delays rather than paying customers who purchased beta software at a premium.  It's fine for Stardock to have no patience and hurry this game out the door well before any resonable person would agree it's ready, but the folks who believed the hype and purchased this pile of bugs are 'angry kids' who need to back off.

 

Sorry, I'm not looking to troll or start flame wars, but I'm also not going to sugar coat what this is and no amount of frogboy-cult-propoganda is going to make me stop voicing my opinion.  If I'm not welcome, neither is the state of the game.   The latter will be cured when the former is.

 

It's a sad day when the community feels it has to walk on eggshells in order to get what they paid for, or to have updates on when the situation will be rectified or how.  While it's true that a certain amount of unhappy customers coming to this forum were inevitable, the extent to which the situation is egregious has always been with Stardock.  If anything, this situation proves that the community as a whole not only has the right, but the responsibility to hold the publishers feet to the fire so as to not have a repeat of this situation in the future.

Thank you, spot on. I'll leave the forums to the happy customers when I can get a refund for an unfinished game.

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September 6, 2010 7:32:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tevans6220,



Quoting Rune_74,
reply 34

See, everyone knows it needs alot of work...we just get tired of every thread having apost telling us that...

 

It's beating a dead horse.



You have to look at it from all sides. It's also beating a dead horse reading post after post of how great the game is. The game has problems. On that everyone agrees. So it's time for both sides to stop. It's time for the diehard zealots to stop attacking anyone who is critical or has a legitmate complaint. It's also time for hate messages to stop. Constructive criticism is okay. Outright hatred such as telling Brad to commit suicide is not. One is just as bad as the other. Wouldn't you agree?

 

To a point, legitimate complaints do not include stating over and over that the game was reelased early, think everyone knows that.  Noone gets shot down for giving ideas, just for being a whiney person.

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September 6, 2010 7:37:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tevans6220,
Brad I have an idea. Instead of having praise threads and critical threads all over the place, why not start and sticky two threads for just that purpose? With the understanding that people posting those types anywhere else in the forums will have their post deleted. It would make it easier on you and your moderators.

You know I think maybe have a sticked and unmoderated "Elemental Sucks" thread that people can go ranting on and the rest of us can ignore might have potential.  Moderators can move flame posts there without deletiing them.  Would be interesting to see what direction it takes.

And to the people complaining they were not part of the beta test and just bought the game and are unhappy... didn't you read any of the reviews???

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September 6, 2010 7:40:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Rune_74,



To a point, legitimate complaints do not include stating over and over that the game was reelased early, think everyone knows that.  Noone gets shot down for giving ideas, just for being a whiney person.

 

It's a vicious circle.  People will whine and others will whine at the whining.  There is no help for it and constantly trying to denounce every negative doesn't do much to help.  Just let the people vent, that's half of what the forums are for post-release of any game.  Even good ones.

 

Eventually the hate will die down on it's own as those people who feel anger will eventually get tired of it and move on and you will only be left with those who are probably upset, but willing to stick it out.  Some of the best feedback comes from those people.  There is no reason to try to force a level set of the forum, it will just happen.  To quote the spirit of the op, have some patience.

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September 6, 2010 7:54:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Actually they said they do not want any venting I believe, they are going to be clamping down on that, or at least the unreasonable venting that has been going on. Or that was my impression of what was said, and I do think that is a good idea. 

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September 6, 2010 8:07:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Rune_74,

To a point, legitimate complaints do not include stating over and over that the game was reelased early, think everyone knows that.  Noone gets shot down for giving ideas, just for being a whiney person.

So it's okay to repeatedly praise a bad release but it's not okay to criticise it or discuss it? That's what you're saying. I've personally witnessed people being called liar for complaining about crashes. Even reviewers were called liars for basically giving honest reviews. You and I have had run-ins this past week because of you attacking people. Some posters show anger that does go a little overboard like the one telling Brad to commit suicide. But some people have legitimate complaints and it's not up to you or me to decide. The positive posts implying that Brad does no wrong, it's all our fault and the game is the greatest ever, are just as bad. They also beat a dead horse while stirring up trouble with those that aren't happy. It's time for everybody to move on. Hater and fanboy alike.

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September 6, 2010 8:08:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting pmaura,

And all the suggestions I see on here are just that suggestions ideas, can people not voice them? there not saying do this or your an idiot.

 

I think the tldr version of his post is:

Keep posting bugs/ideas/suggestions - just do so with basic level of respect and without continually harping on past mistakes that Stardock/Brad/whoever has already admitted to and apologized for making.

That's what I took from it anyway.

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September 6, 2010 8:13:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tevans6220,



Quoting Rune_74,
reply 55

To a point, legitimate complaints do not include stating over and over that the game was reelased early, think everyone knows that.  Noone gets shot down for giving ideas, just for being a whiney person.



So it's okay to repeatedly praise a bad release but it's not okay to criticise it or discuss it? That's what you're saying. I've personally witnessed people being called liar for complaining about crashes. Even reviewers were called liars for basically giving honest reviews. You and I have had run-ins this past week because of you attacking people. Some posters show anger that does go a little overboard like the one telling Brad to commit suicide. But some people have legitimate complaints and it's not up to you or me to decide. The positive posts implying that Brad does no wrong, it's all our fault and the game is the greatest ever, are just as bad. They also beat a dead horse while stirring up trouble with those that aren't happy. It's time for everybody to move on. Hater and fanboy alike.

 

We had run ins because you were flogging the release.  I don't think it was a smooth releaser either, I just get tired of reading about it in every thread regardless of what the thread is about.  If you feel attacked I would say its a personal problem.  Your right though, people do have the right to complain,but how about they do it in  relevant thread instead of every thread on the board?

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September 6, 2010 8:29:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

FFS, the release DESERVES to be flogged, it's 3 patches later and still infested with issues.  Stardock has admitted it and self flagellated.  If you don't want to read it, be a big boy and ignore it.  Stop insisting that the only valid content on the forum has to be condoned by you.  Barring that, let the mods work it out, it's what they are for.

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September 6, 2010 8:33:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I'm going to take a small break from making journals only so that there's time for the game itself -- the basics -- to get addressed and restore the faith for those who are on the fence or those who feel let down by us.

I understand you said you'd take a break from the journals and I respect that.

With that said, I wish you would reconsider and do some more posts related to modding the game.  For example, short of sharing an XML schema or design documents, could you walk through what the various element tags in the different XML files are for, what they do, etc.  It doesn't need to be perfect, just off the top of your head, list some of the tags, where or how it's used.  It's not easy reverse engineering from XML because some of the things that are obvious to the development team aren't going to be from the modder's perspective.

An example: Novaburst had posted about his experience which is very helpful but there are questions he had which are unanswered.

[eTUT] The Dawn Quest and my experiences
http://forums.elementalgame.com/393755

Reply #8 he posted what some of the possible variables are but put it on hold.  This is the type of information I'd think would be available in some design document and if it could be shared with the community, it would be very helpful.

 

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September 6, 2010 8:48:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree that dev posting could be redirected to mod explaining as we are poking around in the dark right now. I like the dark, but a little light never hurt anyone.

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September 6, 2010 8:49:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

OP: do not worry, it will re-establish itself. If we allow it.

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September 6, 2010 9:21:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Brad I have an idea. Instead of having praise threads and critical threads all over the place, why not start and sticky two threads for just that purpose? With the understanding that people posting those types anywhere else in the forums will have their post deleted. It would make it easier on you and your moderators.

Because people would inevitably wind up crossing threads, so we'd just have two stickied flame wars.

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September 6, 2010 10:01:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting kryo,

Brad I have an idea. Instead of having praise threads and critical threads all over the place, why not start and sticky two threads for just that purpose? With the understanding that people posting those types anywhere else in the forums will have their post deleted. It would make it easier on you and your moderators.


Because people would inevitably wind up crossing threads, so we'd just have two stickied flame wars.

Better two massive than 20 mini threads in my opinion.

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September 6, 2010 10:15:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I just wish people would stop posting spuriously and focus on keeping the forums clear so that our feedback and criticisms can quickly reach the developers.  This bullshit is getting old.  certain people hunting down every Elemental thread on the internet, registering, and threadshitting, the idiotic threads about who to blame,  the ridiculous threads containing nothing but page upon page of amateur financial analysis of a company, driven by not even the barest shred of data,  the back and forth of H8TERS & FANBOIS, all of this noise is getting old. 

Shut the hell up--the whole lot of you.  Let us get on with discussing the game and taking advantage of the very rare opportunity to directly interact with a development team.  If you have strong emotional opinions about Elemental or what state the game is in, guess what?  No one cares, and no one wants to hear about it.  Just return the game if you're unhappy, and keep the game if you're content.  Do not create -another- thread about it.  I know that a lot of people think they are special snowflakes and that they have some sort of "right" to express themselves, but this is just a savage lie.

 

The priority of the forum should be to create an environment where the developers and community can engage in discussion of elements of the game; not whether or not you agree with various reviews, or how you personally feel about Brad Wardell.

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September 6, 2010 10:18:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting hairrorist,
I know that a lot of people think they are special snowflakes and that they have some sort of "right" to express themselves, but this is just a savage lie.

So what I was told about each snowflake being unique was a lie?

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September 6, 2010 10:22:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

threadshitting

 

     

That term needs to go in an unofficial computer dictionary of terms somewhere.

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September 6, 2010 10:32:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting tetleytea,
That term needs to go in an unofficial computer dictionary of terms somewhere.

The next best thing... urbandictionary.com

Urban Dictionary: threadshitting
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=threadshitting

 

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September 6, 2010 10:33:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Fearzone,

Quoting tevans6220, reply 43Brad I have an idea. Instead of having praise threads and critical threads all over the place, why not start and sticky two threads for just that purpose? With the understanding that people posting those types anywhere else in the forums will have their post deleted. It would make it easier on you and your moderators.

You know I think maybe have a sticked and unmoderated "Elemental Sucks" thread that people can go ranting on and the rest of us can ignore might have potential.  Moderators can move flame posts there without deletiing them.  Would be interesting to see what direction it takes.

And to the people complaining they were not part of the beta test and just bought the game and are unhappy... didn't you read any of the reviews???

A popular Canadian TV discussion forum I'm on has that. They had a problem for a while where every thread about a TV license or issue wound up being a "the CRTC sucks" thread.

So they created an "Official I hate the CRTC thread", stickied it, and strictly redircted everything on the subject there. Now it's possible to actually talk about a channel license application without everything being hijacked by a discussion about the CRTC, because that part happens in the other thread.

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September 6, 2010 10:37:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That would also probably unintentionally segregate the most rancorous white knights as well.

 

Reminds me of the Something Awful Furry Concentration Camp experiment.  I like it.

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September 6, 2010 10:48:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Seboss,



Quoting Kardiophylax,
reply 2
All communities devolve into this over time.  It is the nature of the internet and is the reason many, I daresay nearly all, the big name developers out there do not interact directly with their game's community.


I'm afraid that the sad truth here. The more developers share with the community, the more the community feels entitled and expects their opinion to matter. In our case, things got totally disproportionate.


 

Disagree on that.  First of all.... the community as a whole consists of many people, not all of them with a sense of entitlement.  The more the developers share the more the community will improve.  Those with a sense of entitlement will always be around.... of course, but if the developers are silent and don't share anything more people will assume they don't care.  Then many people who could contribute to the community will leave.

As the game improves many of the "angry" people will become less angry.  The "critics" will like the game and not argue as much with the "stardock cultists".  Sorry couldn't think of better ways to describe.  Anyway.... my point is as the game improves so will the community. 

Honestly if Frogboy had not shared so much with the community I would have just uninstaled this game, and considered it another mistake I made.  Kicked myself for not waiting till the reviews were out.... moved on, and never looked back. 

Fortunatly he said (in not exact words), "I made a mistake.  we will fix this."   So here I am, waiting patiently.

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September 6, 2010 10:51:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting hairrorist,
I just wish people would stop posting spuriously and focus on keeping the forums clear so that our feedback and criticisms can quickly reach the developers.  This bullshit is getting old.  Drago/Rune hunting down every Elemental thread on the internet, registering, and threadshitting, the idiotic threads about who to blame,  the ridiculous threads containing nothing but page upon page of amateur financial analysis of a company, driven by not even the barest shred of data,  the back and forth of H8TERS & FANBOIS, all of this noise is getting old. 

Shut the hell up--all of you.  Let us get on with discussing the game and taking advantage of the very rare opportunity to directly interact with a development team.  If you have strong emotional opinions about Elemental or what state the game is in, guess what?  No one cares, and no one wants to hear about it.  Just return the game if you're unhappy, and keep the game if you're content.  Do not create -another- thread about it.  I know that a lot of people think they are special snowflakes and that they have some sort of "right" to express themselves, but this is just a savage lie.

 

The priority of the forum should be to create an environment where the developers and community can engage in discussion of elements of the game; not whether or not you agree with various reviews, or how you personally feel about Brad Wardell.

Heh, register on qt3, and get rejects up in arms.  I'm done posting there anyways.  I saw what they were writing, it was disgusting and commented.  Pretty sure that didn't cross any bounds.  The rest of the bullshit you spouted I didn't do.  I actually railed against that stuff, listen I love that you think about me, but its creeping me out.  Lets talk about the game and not people ok?

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