[Suggestion][Gameplay] Inns should be more like Resources and Special Features

Limit Their Number, Make them Improvable, and a constant source of Quests

By on July 17, 2010 8:34:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sareln

Join Date 05/2007
+19

Right now we're faced with an awkward problem.  We need to have some way to deliver quests to the player, but our current system clutters the map pretty badly.  I've attached some examples of such clutter below.

Many Huts

Many Huts 2

Beyond just the cluttering problem, we also need to figure out a good way to introduce new quest givers to the player without breaking immersion (oh hey, a new inn just appeared, you should go visit it!).  To this end, I would suggest a few changes that make inns act in a similar manner to resources.

  1. Inns should only spawn at world spawn
  2. Inns can be improved/co-opted by players
  3. Inns should support multiple quests
  4. Inns should periodically gain more quests

I will go through each point step by step.

Inns should only spawn at world spawn:

I find that it breaks my immersion to have new inns and quest points appear out of thin air auto-magically from time to time.  I would prefer then that Inns only spawn once.  This enables us to control how inns appear on the map through the map generation code, which should also help take care of the clustering problem that I've shown in the above screenshots.

Inns can be improved/co-opted by players:

It's a little weird that new inns are springing up in my "territory" but I don't control them in any manner.  Since inns are going to be much rarer (and support multiple quests), why not let the player improve them like other resources for some bonus in prestige/gold.  This lets the player integrate the "quest giver" into their empire.  Additionally, I would like it if Inns could act as connection points for roads and caravans - so a player can send caravans to an inn, and then onward to another city.  This helps establish the view of the inn as a "halfway house".

Inns should support multiple quests:

How often is there only one quest at the quest hub in an RPG?  I think it would be useful for players to be able to visit inns and choose amongst quests that they can undertake.  There would need to be either a popup or some sort of graphical demonstration that an inn had quests which could be activated.  This also lets us show the player quests that they cannot take yet due to adventure level, encouraging them to raise their adventuring level.  I am envisioning the inn as a place where people from the kingdom can bring problems which don't necessarily require sovereign level intervention to solve.

Inns should periodically gain more quests:

Not everyone knows that they have a problem immediately, and some people take a long time to go looking for help.  I think it would be cool if inns provided a semi-steady stream of quests for adventurers and sovereigns to take.  Once again, I view the inn as a place where people come with problems to be solved.

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bebraw
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July 18, 2010 4:47:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

YES!!!

Perhaps not all Inns have to spawn on map generation ... but most I think, until borders start expanding and cities start leveling up (then Inns can sporadically spawn within Influence, with a certain 5-tile minimum distance between Inns)

So ... while Quest "givers" could be repetitive, its not so bad if quest "destinations" still pop up out of thin air. For instance, having a hidden temple or dungeon pop up out of thin air makes a good bit of sense (secret entrance found).

 

I liked the event where the spiders were guarding the hidden armor ... probably best quest I have done so far .. although getting the Dragon's egg was also pretty fun.

Also, certain quest destinations could be Spawn points for monsters. Like Trolls Pass could spawn trolls, and a Ruined Fortress could spawn monsters and rarely a demon.

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July 18, 2010 5:24:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thumbs up for this idea!

Make inn more persistent, so that the inns laid within my influence will generate better quests IF I have invested more Adventuring Tech than other players.

Quests will get repetitive eventually, in a sense that you've done the same quest a few times or the reward don't worth your trouble or other reasons.   This is, imho, quite unavoidable minor issue.   The game will not know when we player lost interest to quests, but there should be great UI inplace that players can glance at the new quests quickly.  

I am all for a per-turn event log.  New quests should be recorded there.   Player can click on the particular entry of the quest to see the detail, or click ignore to ignore it.   The 'new quest' entry on the event log may looks like that:

"New Quest: Rescuing the princess in a far far away land, may give you 500 glidar and sword of rightuousness"  "ACCEPT quest" " Ignore quest"

 

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July 18, 2010 12:00:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Add a quest screen separated from the other screens in the knigdom overview. It should have 3 tabs, Offers, Current, Barred:

Offers appear at a rate dependent on population, adventure tech, amount of inns in your border, and maybe more things. Once an offer appears it appears in the notification at the left side of the screen. In the offers screen, you can see details of location, rewards, and what you might expect. If you don't accept it for X turns, it vanishes. If you click Ignore, another one will appear faster.

Current shows just the details, maybe also a "Give up" option.

The Barred shows the offers that you can't get since you lack the necessary adventure tech. These would not incur a notification, yet be visible here.

Perhaps in Barred and Offers there will be a preffered level to set, so that if you select lvl 2, mostly lvl 2 quests appear. This might also be researched to fleshen out the adventure tree.

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July 18, 2010 12:56:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Completely agree with OP.

I really don't like calling them "inns". Just seems like standard fantasy cheese. I just think of them minor settlements. There are several threads discussing how inns right after the cataclysm is a bit of a immersion killer....but I agree that they should act as a standard resource, can be improved by players, give out multiple quests, and gain more as players level up their quest tree.

Immersion wise, I'd like to see them initially as struggling makeshift settlements out in the wastelands. Kinda like a refugee camp...in fact, I would just merge these two ideas together. A refugee camp would act as the initial quests hubs, plus pay out a small population increase. Once the players starts expanding and upgrading his/her kingdom/empire via techs, the refugee camps develop into minor settlements and give out more quests plus other bonuses such as increased population, gold, ect...

We could still have some way to give out quests that are not tied to static quest hubs. For example, a broken down caravan, a traveling sage, or, after defeating a mob, they either tell you something or you find something on their corpse. The higher your up in the quest tree, the more chances of this happening in your territory.

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July 18, 2010 1:59:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good suggestions, but I'm sorry, inns being on the map at all at the game's start seems just completely laughable to me.  The world is still smoldering after the Apocalypse, there aren't any cities on the map, but there are inns all over the place?  Nuke inns on the map all-together.  Instead, make emmerging "inn" tiles temporary "water holes" or some other thing that can naturally emmerge that would attract adventurers and such. 

Second, I would make quest acquisition mid game a function of city building and adventure tech.  Basically, you'd stop relying on the "water holes" mid-late game and start relying on "hooks" provided by inns throughout your empire.  The more inns you have, the more provacative quests tend to fall at your doorstep (just an example.)

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July 18, 2010 3:00:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Demiansky,
Good suggestions, but I'm sorry, inns being on the map at all at the game's start seems just completely laughable to me.  The world is still smoldering after the Apocalypse, there aren't any cities on the map, but there are inns all over the place?  Nuke inns on the map all-together.  Instead, make emmerging "inn" tiles temporary "water holes" or some other thing that can naturally emmerge that would attract adventurers and such. 

Second, I would make quest acquisition mid game a function of city building and adventure tech.  Basically, you'd stop relying on the "water holes" mid-late game and start relying on "hooks" provided by inns throughout your empire.  The more inns you have, the more provacative quests tend to fall at your doorstep (just an example.)

Saw your other thread - perhaps we can fold the refugee camp and inn together? Eg. Refugee camps are unimproved Inns, when the player gains control of a refugee camp, he can improve it into an inn/village for a pop bonus in the controlling city and the benefit of hooking the camp/inn's questgiving abilities into his adventuring tech level?

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July 18, 2010 4:04:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Or inns could start as refugee camps and then upgrade to Inns naturally over time.

 

But I think there should be a "crowd factor" where quest locations have to be at LEAST 2 tiles away from the nearest other quest location.

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July 18, 2010 4:34:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tasunke,
Or inns could start as refugee camps and then upgrade to Inns naturally over time.

 

But I think there should be a "crowd factor" where quest locations have to be at LEAST 2 tiles away from the nearest other quest location.

Yeah, the implication of making inns --> refugee camps, or more like resources, is that it enables you to control how closely they appear with the map generator instead of trying to come up with special rules for them.

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July 18, 2010 4:59:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

By quest location I didn't just mean how far apart Inns are. Inns should be at least 5 - 10 tiles apart.

No, I mean the Ruined Fortress shouldn't be 1 tile away from the Inn, and the Terrorized Village should be isolated, and the wolf infested forest should spawn on a forest tile.

Oh ... and the Mystical Temple of XiauDun that is far away should be friggen FAR AWAY (like half the map)

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July 19, 2010 3:19:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Love this idea.

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July 19, 2010 3:44:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
I find that it breaks my immersion to have new inns and quest points appear out of thin air auto-magically from time to time.
You find no problem with Dungeons/Crypts/Temples/Quest_Locations_In_General popping out of thin air when you get a Quest? Or should all those locations be spawned also at World Spawn? There are some reasons why Spontaneous Generation is good for Inns and Quests Locations.

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July 19, 2010 3:53:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quest Hubs are better to be consitent imho ...

while QLs that can spawn creatures ... I've already talked about.

Minor QLs may or may not spontaneously spawn as soon as you get maps to them ... but it may be better if they existed "invisibly" before you discovered the Quest or Tech as rubble or some such feature unidentifiable and impossible to build on.

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July 19, 2010 1:07:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,

You find no problem with Dungeons/Crypts/Temples/Quest_Locations_In_General popping out of thin air when you get a Quest? Or should all those locations be spawned also at World Spawn? There are some reasons why Spontaneous Generation is good for Inns and Quests Locations.

I found inns to be the rawest point, so I aimed to address that first.  I do think that if you're adding a location to the map, you should have a plausible reason for it.  Even something as small as a popup saying: "villagers have uncovered the entrance to an ancient tomb" or "locals report the appearance of a dark tower, there is sorcery about it" would be sufficient for notable locations.  Inns, however, imply civilization - or at least some semblance of it - and that's why I think the players should be able to tie them in like resources.

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July 19, 2010 1:59:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Refugee Camps (Basic & L1 Quests) --> Camps (L2 - L4 Quests) --> Inns (L5+ Quests) as a combination of Turns since taking ownership and progression inside of the Adventuring Tech Tree. (level is used as a term for purposes of separation based on Difficulty and or Rewards gained)

It would seem strange to have a refugee camp be "consumed" but never become anything "better" over time as your Kingdom grows in both size and Prestige.

This prevents both un-needed Clutter and insta-spawns that can break immersion...

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July 19, 2010 4:12:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I must say some of these are solid suggestions to solving the clutter while maintaining a good mechanism for delivering quests..

Here is another type of quest hub we could have.. as we level adventure lvl add a structure called bounty board.. then add a shop like action button to interact with it..  it could offer x amounts of quests for each level...

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July 19, 2010 5:48:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yea ... insta-spawning and disappearing "Cities basically" is kinda lame

which is why they should be permanent

 

Why do I say cities? Places where humans eat, drink, breed ... basically where they live. So its a Camp, a Town, or an Inn ... its civilization. Its a permanent fixture of human interaction.

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July 19, 2010 6:11:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like the idea a lot. We wouldn't be able to do this for 1.0 or even 1.1 but someday in the future we could look at this.

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July 19, 2010 9:00:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ive been thinking basically the same things for awhile. Glad i finally found a post on it. 

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July 19, 2010 9:24:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I like the idea a lot. We wouldn't be able to do this for 1.0 or even 1.1 but someday in the future we could look at this.

frogger, I would like this as soon as practical(possible)

harpo

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July 19, 2010 9:27:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I like the idea a lot. We wouldn't be able to do this for 1.0 or even 1.1 but someday in the future we could look at this.

This topic unfortunately is not new. We have been suggesting Inn improvements for awhile.

Can we atleast have better Inn spawns as seen in the above pics? And can't you atleast stop the disappearing/appearing Inn tricks? Some basic tweaks could be made.

I have stated my distaste with inns long ago. To me they are just simple quest hubs. Why not remove them completely and replace with an advisor that offers quests. I think it silly the majority of quests have to be initiated by finding a dang inn especially when you are on the other side of the map of one. Guess that is why they spawn all over the place.

I say if you go down the adventuring path you get offered quests and you can immediately accept or turn them down. No need for inns. Inns serve no purpose. Other way to get quests should be to explore the world - not exploring inns. I say either do something substantial with inns or remove them. But that is just me.

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July 19, 2010 10:18:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

At least far less Inn crowding for 1.0 plz

 

But yea, I'd like to see this overall idea implemented in an Expansion

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July 20, 2010 11:41:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Some great ideas here, it's really too bad that it won't be in the game for a while. It would certainly help with changing reviews from 'the quest system is a bit wonky' to 'the quest system is well thought out'.

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July 20, 2010 12:12:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
I like the idea a lot. We wouldn't be able to do this for 1.0 or even 1.1 but someday in the future we could look at this.

Im very glad you think so too Brad.

As far as the current system. I think a quick cosmetic change would do wonders. Instead of inns as the quest starter, have fire camps of wondering travelers, temporary makeshift settlements, a broken down caravan/injured person in need of assistance.  Just so it makes more flavor sense why they pop up out of nowhere. I would also have less of them per area (for less clutter), a have old quest hubs disappear after a while. Heck, once the mod tools come out, Im sure people will make these for you (more then you'll ever want ; ) ). This still doesn't address temples and other 'quest enders' popping out of nowhere, but its a good start I think.

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July 20, 2010 6:28:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like the idea of Inns not dissapearing, it would make them more valuable since you would want to control the output of quests from a given Inn. I would also like to expand on this idea by saying that Inns could work like the current Shops in our cities. You step on top of the Inn and in your action bar get a "Enter Inn" button which if you press, opens up a screen showing the inside of the Inn. There you could see a bartender and shady looking characters that if you mouse over them displays a quest which you could choose or just ignore. These characters could change with time or after you do the previous quests or just by researching in the adventure tree.

I love how the shops where you buy items work, and I love how it has its own music and doing something similar with the inns would be just going along the theme that has been set in the game already.

It could also be old school like this screenshot of some random game I googled up (I think its New Horizons for the SNES omg i loved that game).

Edit: Forgot to say that when you are standing on top of the Inn, you could also get a "Rest at the Inn" option for some cash or free idk

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July 20, 2010 6:43:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

hehe, rest at Inn (costs gold, refills HP and Mana)

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