Should the basic Attack & Defense mechanic work like in Master of Magic?

I think so

By on May 12, 2010 9:56:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Campaigner

Join Date 12/2004
+15

We don't know how the Attack & Defense mechanic will work and I'm not sure if even Stardock knows so I got a suggestion on how to do it.

 

I have played all the Age of Wonders games, Disciples II, Master of Magic and all Heroes game except the first one but I've never thought the combatsystem to be good enough in any of'em. Master of Magic came closest though.

 

  • Age of Wonders - Attack, counterattack. Every point of Attack over Defense (AoD) increases chance to hit (Cth) with 10%. Every point of Defense over Attack (DoA) increases the chance to avoid damage by 10%. Stats are 1-10
  • Age of Wonders II & Shadow Magic - Same as above but the stats are 1-20 here so every point of AoD increases Cth by 5% and DoA decreases Cth by 5%
  • Disciples II - Every unit got 80% Cth. Some abilities and spells affect this percentage
  • Heroes of Might & Magic - Heroes II: Every point of AoD increases damage by 10%. Every point of DoA decreases damage by 5%. Heroes III:  Every point of AoD increases damage by 5%. Every point of DoA decreases damage by 2%
  • Master of Magic - Each point of Attack gave each figure in a unit one diceroll with a 30% Cth. If f.e. 3 attacks went through, each enemy figure makes a diceroll for every point of Defense they have with a 30% chance to block the attack

 

Age of Wonders - This series uses a very simple system that anyone can understand. The downside is that attack & defense is SO powerful and that it is hit or miss. Too luckbased.

Disciples II - The combat is too shallow and also annoyingly luckbased with the 80% Cth. Never liked this. WAY too shallow and annoyingly luckbased

Heroes of Might & Magic - Units always hit so this system therefore isn't applicable to Elemental (I HOPE!)

Master of Magic is the clear winner as the combatsystem have great depth and pretty good predictability while still having that uncertainty of how much you'll lose.

 

 

Instead of explaining exactly how the combat works, I quote a combat from the manual of Master of Magic. It explains an interesting battle between wildly different creatures with different abilities. I've bolded the first interesting part:

 

Melee Combat Example
    During your combat turn, your basilisk unit finds itself starting next
to an enemy unit of elven lords with a regular experience level (i.e., they
have an extra sword and cross icon to supplement their starting
abilities). Note that fantastic (i.e., summoned) units never gain
experience. Both the basilisk and the elven lords are completely
undamaged; they have no enchantments on them and the battlefield is
unenchanted. You are determined to have your basilisk attack those
elven lords for all they’re worth. After placing the cursor over the elven
lords (whom you refer to in a derogatory manner as “Elvis” lords) so that
the crossed-swords icon of melee combat appears, you click on them to
start melee combat.
                                    93
     Gaze attacks are resolved before regular melee attacks. Since the
basilisk has the Stoning Gaze ability, this attack is resolved before the
hand-to-hand fighting of the melee attack. Each of the four figures in the
elven lords unit must make a saving throw against your Stoning Gaze
attack or be turned to stone (eliminated). Elven lords have a fantastic
innate resistance ability of 9 (i.e., they are born with nine crosses in
their statistics). The basilisk’s Stoning Gaze has a minus one save
modifier, lowering the elven lords’ resistance to eight. Since the elven
lords are at regular experience level, though, they gain an extra cross,
bringing their total back up to nine. Each cross increases the chance to
resist spells and special magic attacks (such as the basilisk’s Stoning
Gaze) by 10%. With nine crosses, each of the four elven lord figures has
a 90% chance to resist the gaze attack. Unfortunately for the elves, one
of them fails. Its figure is removed from the unit, and the unit’s damage
bar turns green and fills to three quarters of its length (to reflect the loss
of that figure from the group).
     Now both units simultaneously swing at each other in melee
combat—meaning that the results of both their efforts against each
other are applied concurrently (thus, any figure destroyed in this
simultaneous exchange still inflicts whatever damage it can upon the
enemy before being removed from play). Let’s calculate the basilisk’s
attack against the remaining three elven lords first.
     The basilisk has a melee attack strength of 15 (i.e., it has 15 sword
icons on its statistics). Thus, the computer makes 15 die rolls for it,
each with a base 30% chance to hit. With a little luck, the basilisk scores
5 hits from among those die rolls. The elven lords, in response, have a
defense strength of four each (each figure has four shield icons among
its statistics). So, the first elven lord figure steps up to defend against
the basilisk’s 5 incoming hits. The computer rolls four dice (one for each
shield), each with a base 30% to negate a single hit. Unfortunately, it
completely misses and all five hits are scored against that elven figure.
Since each elven lord figure only has three hits (i.e., three heart symbols
on its statistics), it is killed and the two remaining hits are applied
against the next elven lord figure. That figure gets to use its full
complement of shield icons, making four rolls against the same 30%
chance to stop a hit. With better luck than the last figure, it manages to
block one hit, and so suffers the other. Thus, after this melee exchange,
two elven lord figures remain standing in this unit, the foremost of which
has taken a single hit (one of his three heart symbols is darkened).
     Before applying these devastating results to the elven lords,
however, the computer lets them swing back at the basilisk. Each elven
lord has an attack strength (number of sword icons) of six (five for their
starting value, +1 for their troop status of “regulars”). Thus, the three
figures in the elven lords unit throw a total of 18 attack rolls to score
hits on the basilisk. Like all units, elven lords have a base chance to hit
with each attack roll of 30%, but elven lords have a special ability, giving
them a +2 bonus to hit. This increases their chance to hit by 20% (+10%
per bonus point), giving each of their 18 attack rolls a modified chance
to hit of 50%.
     The results for the elven lords are lucky, and they land 13 hits on
the basilisk. For its part, the basilisk has a defense strength (shields) of
four. However, since the elven lords also have the special ability of
armor piercing, creatures trying to block their hits can only use half of
their shields (rounded down). Thus, the basilisk makes its measly two

                                       94
defense rolls, each with that base 30% chance to stop a single hit.
Luckless, the basilisk suffers all 13 blows, reducing its full strength of 30
hits (hearts) down to 17. Now, the losses to both units are applied. The
elven lords’ damage bar is glowing yellow and slightly less than half full
(having lost half its figures and with a hit against one of the remaining
ones), while the basilisk’s damage bar gleams yellow but noticeably more
than half full (having 13 damage hits against its 30 total hits).
     With half your unit’s moves remaining (melee and missile attacks
only use one-half of a unit’s moves), you again place the crossed-swords
cursor over the elven lords, figuring that your wounded basilisk can
finish off the two figures that remain standing defiantly against you.
Failing your gaze attack against each of the elven lords again—that
pesky high 90% resistance roll —melee combat quickly ensues.
     Unaffected by injuries to surviving figures (i.e., by any darkened
heart symbols on their statistics), both units attack with full vigor. The
basilisk throws the same 15 attacks rolls (sword icons), each with the
same 30% chance to hit, but scores only three hits this time. The first
elven lord (the one with only two of its three hits remaining) rolls its four
defense rolls (shield icons), each with a 30% chance to negate one hit,
and misses completely. So, two of your three hits are applied to destroy
that figure, while the remaining one meets the last elven lord figure’s
four defense rolls. He manages to block the last hit. The last elven lord
figure is undamaged, but his unit’s strength bar wanes red, showing only
25% of its full strength hit points remain.
     Before suffering those losses, though, the elven lords swing back at
the basilisk. They each roll their six attacks, for a total of 12 throws,
each with the same 50% chance to hit as before. Luck is still with those
swinging elves, for they land another eight hits against your wounded
basilisk. With its two defense rolls, the basilisk manages to block a
single hit, so another seven hits are applied against it, and seven more
of its hearts are darkened. With a total 20 damage, the basilisk now has
only 10 hits left, so its strength bar is colored red and filled to one-third
of its length. The red nubbin graphically symbolizes the amount of
damage your basilisk can still take before dying.
     Note that although the elven lords have First Strike ability, it can only
be used when elven lords are conducting their own attack against
another unit (i.e., during their turn, by expending their own movement
points). The First Strike ability does not apply when units with it are
defending themselves against another player’s melee attack. However,
when the elven lords attack the basilisk (as they would next, if our
example continued), both the Stoning Gaze and First Strike attacks are
conducted simultaneously. Thus, any elven lords that are stoned can
still get in a “parting shot” against the basilisk.
     Of course, any unit that loses 75% of its strength and three of its
four figures might choose to flee rather than to press an attack. A unit
that flees has a 50-50 chance of escaping alive to recover darkened
hearts and “recruit” new figures until it is full strength once more (see
Unit Size and Healing).
                                      95
RANGED ATTACKS
    To initiate a ranged attack, the active unit must have a ranged
weapon (missile, magic or rocks, indicated in the active unit window by
a small bow, fireball or rock, respectively, depending on the unit’s
ranged weapon type) and some ammunition. When the active unit still
has ammunition (the combat unit display in the upper right corner helps
in determining this; see Combat), you can click over enemy units to fire
at them. The cursor appears as a small bow over valid targets for a
ranged attack. Note that flying units may be targeted for ranged attack
by nonfliers in adjacent squares. Ranged attacks are resolved in the
same way as melee attacks (see Melee Strength and Defense), but the
target unit may not fight back, and there is a reduced chance to hit a
target at ranges that exceed two squares.
    Most units with ranged weapons have a limited supply of ammunition
for their weapons (see List of All Normal Units and Table J:
Summoned Creatures in the Appendix). When ammunition runs out, a
unit can no longer conduct ranged attacks. Exceptions include many of
the rock throwing creatures and spell casting heroes who can “throw”
ranged magic attacks at a cost of three mana per attack until they run out
of magic power. Note that, unlike other ranged attacks, magic ranged
attacks are not stopped by the Weapon Immunity special ability.
    Both missile and rock ranged attacks lose power at long ranges
unless the unit has the Long Range special ability (see Special Unit
Abilities). As the distance to a target increases, these ranged attacks
suffer penalties to their “to hit” values (losing one “to hit” for every two
map squares, starting with the third square away from the firing unit).
Note that magic ranged attacks do not suffer from any distance penalty.
The effect of distance on a unit’s ability to hit at range is shown in the
following table.
               Distance Penalty for Ranged Attacks
  Distance from Attacker to Target       Percent Base Chance to Hit Target
           1-2 map squares                             30%*
           3-4 map squares                              20%
      5 or more map squares                             10%
    * The base chance to hit is 30% for all units, so this table shows the
distance-dependent penalty for normal units. The chance to hit may be
modified by spells or items. For example, a unit with a +1 to hit bonus
always has an increased chance to hit of 10% (as long as no other to hit
modifiers are operating). This means that the unit has a 40% chance to hit
at one to two squares and a 10% chance to hit at five or more squares.

 

It's a little hard on the eyes I realized, but find the manual and go to page 93.

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May 13, 2010 2:43:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's a system used some good pen&Paper RPG. And by far the system that makes most sense and gives the most realistic results without having some chess-like system (where you can calculate everything) : you really never (or 1 times on 100 000) the "Warriors vs Tank" syndrom of civ.

In a pen&paper RPg it can get annoying to throw 18 dice (but he .. I like to throw dice), but in a CRPG it's not a problem.

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May 13, 2010 9:07:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

To add Civ IV: Colonisation's system-

-success % out of 100, to the death unless unit has 'withdrawal' ability (cav only). Unit has strength rating augmented by terrain (hills and forest give bonuses) and abilties (ranger I gives +20% strength in forest etc or Veteran I gives +10% strength). Units can heal out of combat, fortify etc.

Pros- often leads to some realistic military campaigns esp. considering the AWI setting.

Cons- single units only, no battlemap, rather simplistic.

--------------------------------------

The MoM's combat system was one of the best things about it imo. The dice rolls made it occasionally unpredictable but not pull-hair-out arbitrary. Given Elemental will have differant-sized units, I'd be interested in hearing what they have planned.

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May 13, 2010 11:25:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good idea.. the all-too-common gaming convention where a 3 attack unit gets one chance to hit for either 0 or 3 damage can be far too luck-based. Changing that to three rolls that each do 1 damage if successful makes the results much more consistent without completely removing the luck factor.

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May 13, 2010 1:25:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think I like this idea (each single-integer value of attack and defense has a 30% chance to be activated) rather than the linear roll of a simple value [1-10]

This seems far cooler, and perhaps even allows for natural bell-curve? The only difference in elemental is that extra damage would be wasted as opposed to applied to the second nearest opponent.

Thereby, if you have an attack of 30, you are reasonably sure that you will get an attack role somewhere near 10.

 

Hmm, I am not sure if I like the low % of attack/ defense being used, as I am more a 50% chance to be activated type of guy ... however I suppose if all attk/def stats had a 30% per piece activation then it would balance out. So while 10 attack might average (3 attack), a 3 defense would average a 1 defense.

The only problem with this, would be that attack/defense values with fractions would be left out lest they be rounded. For instance, it would be impossible to roll a 10.7 vs their defense of 10 and deal 0.7 damage, yet I dunno, maybe the current system rounds as well.

But yea, I agree with Austin about the consistency thing that this approach provides.

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May 17, 2010 8:57:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I really recommend the original MoM system. It worked really well in the original. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Great topic, Campaigner, this is a very important aspect of the game. I sincerely hope we won't be seeing the oddities of Galciv 2 combat in Elemental. 1 hp survivals and such...

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May 18, 2010 9:57:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't really like any of those systems. How about using something closer to a tabletop wargame system instead? My issue with RPG systems is that they're very random. Tabletop RPG stats typically have a range of something like 20, are further modifiable by somewhere between 20-100% of that from stat modifiers, and then modified even further by a random value that typically range from 0-100% of stat range.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good thing in games where you want a handful of humans to be able to kick dragon ass, but don't want dragons to be less menacing than your average guard dog. It's just not all that appropriate in wargames. Partly because it allows for freakish things like handfuls puny humans killing dragons, but more importantly because such systems are far more complex than they need to be, and much, much too messy to keep track of in your head when you're managing a whole army... A whole empire, even.

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May 18, 2010 10:43:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hmm .... if you select your whole army you get these glowing tabards over each unit ... lv 1 units glow a bright shade of green (as well as weak units) while higher level/ more powerful units have yellow-green, orange, and then red tabards ... with red and brilliant dark red being the most powerful.

Therefore, you know your units roughly by what color their tabard glows. If its red you know they are important/super-powerful/ worth keeping alive ... and if they are green you know they are "usually" cannon fodder.

orange meanwhile are usually either mid-fielders, or on their way to become red ... just depends on the unit and the commander's play style.

 

 

As for why a small group of humans should be able to potentially take down a dragon ... its all opportunity cost.

Obviously if your dragon is about as strong as their group of elite units, then you'll want to make sure the rest of your army is stronger than the rest of their army. If not, than either use good tactics (or defensive position) or retreat with your dragon intact if the battle is lost.

Additionally, it will be easier to try and kill individual members of their elite unit than it will be for their army to try and take out an entire dragon.

Dragons, also, have this nasty ability called flight as well as dragon-breath ... so unless these people are wearing Ancient Artifacts Armor/ weapons, chances are they will need the Magical support of a Sovereign to get in close enough for the kill.

Not to mention the effort it took (over many, many tactical battles) to level up those units to the skill level they are at today. (and constantly re-equipping them -your best soldiers- with the newest weapons your Smiths have to offer)

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May 29, 2010 2:02:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The MoM system is the best.

Civilization's system is totally retarded. Barring withdrawal chances, 1 side is guaranteed to die every battle. This made it impossible to keep a strong unit alive for long periods of time as there is always a small chance he will die.

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May 29, 2010 5:30:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The fun thing about computers is we can do extremely complicated and awesome battle systems if we want - they can do all the heavy lifting math.

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May 29, 2010 6:12:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TCores,
The fun thing about computers is we can do extremely complicated and awesome battle systems if we want - they can do all the heavy lifting math.

All that is required is that all that underlying Math be congealed, condensed and conveyed to the players via the GUI such that when little Billy shows up a month, or 4, after launch, he doesn't simply get annihilated by anyone and everyone who knows, already, what that complexity means in regards to the over-all unit battlefield output/efficiency and simply quits and never comes back.

Many games are "Ground Floor or Struggle" ever after based upon launch. I am not sure if that phenomina is actually avoidable, but it would be HUGE to many, in terms of after Launch sales.

Perhaps, I hear SC2(Beta) is doing such an idea. You can fight to get a Battle rating or levels via Test areas, that then assign players to level appropriate groups, as they arrive to the game new.

In a Nutshell.

Knowledge of the true underlying complexities of the Math, should not be the "thing" that separates the Senior Uber players from the Noobs. Especially in a Random environment, a true understanding of Battle Tactics and Strategy should be "the main" factors that lead to true victory.

 

 

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May 29, 2010 6:41:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting TCores,
The fun thing about computers is we can do extremely complicated and awesome battle systems if we want - they can do all the heavy lifting math.

The problem with that is that people need to be able to understand what is going on. If you are doing highly complicated simulations that are difficult for the human player to understand you ruin the playability of the game.

Quoting John_Hughes,
Perhaps, I hear SC2(Beta) is doing such an idea. You can fight to get a Battle rating or levels via Test areas, that then assign players to level appropriate groups, as they arrive to the game new.

SC2's current ladder system is currently being slammed in a very unflattering manner by a large number of people on the forums. This would lead me to believe that it is not very popular.

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May 29, 2010 10:10:09 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hate to bring in MoM system, but that game did ALOT of things right.

A modern update and a few tweaks is all it needs.

I played all those games but im not this familiar with all the mechanics of combat as OP is.

Played a 1C game last night called Fantasy Wars. Almos like a tabletop strategy game. Such things as terrain mattered when attack or defending. Putting units in a forest square protects them against missile and cavalry, and hid them. Cool little crap

i have faith in the devs since they have so much passion for this game. Willing to change the combat from RTS to Turn Based for the fans.

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May 29, 2010 10:33:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Aside from the fact that it's usually me harping on the UI and the fact that most games are based on the player receiving information, considering it and then acting on it (and so that should be core to the experience, since otherwise they're not playing, they're watching), not all complicated mathematical simulations are necessarily difficult to understand and work with when you have computer aided displays, like you say.

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May 30, 2010 1:57:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Grove12345,
Hate to bring in MoM system, but that game did ALOT of things right.

Why the hate? If something is done right, it'd be pretty stupid to change it just for change's sake.

This is the one thing that has me worried about the game. That changes are being made for their own sake without regard for whether it'll improve the game or not.

My one comfort is that the game will probably be moddable enough for me to realize my dream of a modernized version of MoM.

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May 30, 2010 2:10:23 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I won't question the dedication of Someone who has the dark wizard guy from MoM as their Avatar. (I like being alive)

Personally I liked MoM's combat mechanics... Even if you understood the stats the way they were handled allowed for enough random room that you couldn't always say for certain you were going to win (unless there was an uber difference in power).

I don't like over simplified systems where just a little calculation can tell you for a definite certainty that your going to win or not... Yet you can't be overcomplicated either, it's all about balance.

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May 30, 2010 4:34:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Shadowrun ! The mom's system is the one created with shadowrun (the p&p rpg)

I finally remembered it <-- happy vieuxchat

And that's by far one of the most clever rpg system. Why re-invent the wheel ?

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May 30, 2010 5:16:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ChongLi,



Quoting Grove12345,
reply 12
Hate to bring in MoM system, but that game did ALOT of things right.


Why the hate? If something is done right, it'd be pretty stupid to change it just for change's sake.

This is the one thing that has me worried about the game. That changes are being made for their own sake without regard for whether it'll improve the game or not.

My one comfort is that the game will probably be moddable enough for me to realize my dream of a modernized version of MoM.

 

well i just like to believe that there is a chance that SD can do it better.

Like maybe SD can focus that they want everything MoM had AND more. i dont want a 99% clone. Ya MoM is AWESOME and addicting but there could be lots of changes.

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May 30, 2010 12:42:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ChongLi,

SC2's current ladder system is currently being slammed in a very unflattering manner by a large number of people on the forums. This would lead me to believe that it is not very popular.

If you go by that metric, World of Warcraft is the least popular and most broken game in the history of games.

Blizzard's community is so huge that people primarily tend to post when they want to complain about something. It's also so huge that no matter what is done, you will have ten thousand people decrying how terrible it is.

You even see cases where the forums "unanimously" want something, and Blizzard does it. Suddenly the forums hate it, mostly because it's a new set of people who liked it how it was and thus weren't posting abot it.

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May 30, 2010 12:58:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tridus,



Quoting ChongLi,
reply 11

SC2's current ladder system is currently being slammed in a very unflattering manner by a large number of people on the forums. This would lead me to believe that it is not very popular.


If you go by that metric, World of Warcraft is the least popular and most broken game in the history of games.

Blizzard's community is so huge that people primarily tend to post when they want to complain about something. It's also so huge that no matter what is done, you will have ten thousand people decrying how terrible it is.

You even see cases where the forums "unanimously" want something, and Blizzard does it. Suddenly the forums hate it, mostly because it's a new set of people who liked it how it was and thus weren't posting abot it.

thats how i feel about WOW. Blizzard tried to appeal to everyone that the game is has lost any character. Both sides have every class now, people cap their levels in like 2 weeks, they have to cater to an annoying crowd. I dont really see MMOs being any good for at least another 7 years. All the Diablo games are the same despite taking 6 years to make one. SC2 is a spam war.

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May 30, 2010 6:17:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Grove12345,



Quoting Tridus,
reply 18



Quoting ChongLi,
reply 11

SC2's current ladder system is currently being slammed in a very unflattering manner by a large number of people on the forums. This would lead me to believe that it is not very popular.


If you go by that metric, World of Warcraft is the least popular and most broken game in the history of games.

Blizzard's community is so huge that people primarily tend to post when they want to complain about something. It's also so huge that no matter what is done, you will have ten thousand people decrying how terrible it is.

You even see cases where the forums "unanimously" want something, and Blizzard does it. Suddenly the forums hate it, mostly because it's a new set of people who liked it how it was and thus weren't posting abot it.



thats how i feel about WOW. Blizzard tried to appeal to everyone that the game is has lost any character. Both sides have every class now, people cap their levels in like 2 weeks, they have to cater to an annoying crowd. I dont really see MMOs being any good for at least another 7 years. All the Diablo games are the same despite taking 6 years to make one. SC2 is a spam war.

Yep. Perhaps the upcoming Bioware MMORPG will be different...not that I will buy it. I don't have time for MMORPGs anymore.

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May 30, 2010 6:36:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Grove12345,

thats how i feel about WOW. Blizzard tried to appeal to everyone that the game is has lost any character. Both sides have every class now, people cap their levels in like 2 weeks, they have to cater to an annoying crowd. I dont really see MMOs being any good for at least another 7 years. All the Diablo games are the same despite taking 6 years to make one. SC2 is a spam war.

You say that like its a bad thing.

Both sides having every class is good for balance, which was fundamentally broken in vanilla and short of making the two classes more alike wasn't fixable.  Level capping quickly if you want to is fine, it's not like levelling is a real challenge in most games anyway. The real game starts at 80. Why make it take 6 months to get there except as a pointless grind?

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May 30, 2010 7:15:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ChongLi,



SC2's current ladder system is currently being slammed in a very unflattering manner by a large number of people on the forums. This would lead me to believe that it is not very popular.

Not saying they are wrong. but I wonder how many of these people just suck ass as bad as I do at it. First time I qualified Silver. After the next two resets I only qualified Bronze each time. And in this current reset I am 0/3 in my placement matches ARRGG.

I suck I guess lol. But I know alot of people out there think they are better than they are and when the rating they get doesn't match the one they think they should get. They tend to blame the hammer and not the carpenter.

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May 30, 2010 8:56:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tridus,


If you go by that metric, World of Warcraft is the least popular and most broken game in the history of games.

Blizzard's community is so huge that people primarily tend to post when they want to complain about something. It's also so huge that no matter what is done, you will have ten thousand people decrying how terrible it is.

You even see cases where the forums "unanimously" want something, and Blizzard does it. Suddenly the forums hate it, mostly because it's a new set of people who liked it how it was and thus weren't posting abot it.

I agree, however, that does not alleviate the real problems with Battle.net 2.0.

You can check out this video for more information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=M-r_uCaFxg8

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May 31, 2010 6:41:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I've played all of the OP's games too. I really like the HOMM 3 combat system, add in a % chance to hit stat for each creature and I think its perfect.

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June 4, 2010 11:34:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It starts on page 95 of my manual, not page 93.  Two versions of the manual ??

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