Unit cost variety

By on September 26, 2009 2:03:52 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

LordCobol

Join Date 08/2008
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In most games I have played, unit strength is closely proportional to recruit-cost, recruit-time, maintenance-cost and the time/cost to build the building or research the spell that lets you get them.

I'd like some variety, like maybe units with low reseach cost and build cost, but high maintenance, or high reseach cost & build time, but low maintenance (think Kensai in Shogun Total War, or war-dogs in RomeTW), etc.

Of course, in a design-your-own-units game like Elemental seems to be, translate that into specific types of equipment, but include a full set of items on the same side of the curve, so if we want a high-cost / low maint unit we can research high-cost / low maint armor, sword, shield, etc.

Not a big big fan of the sentence from page 33 of my GalCiv2 Gold manual "Military ships have a maintenance cost as well that is approximately 3% of their original cost", and not just because I think 3% is a bit low.

 

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September 26, 2009 7:12:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I addition to your fine idea, one could add upkeep not related to gold.

 

You could have a dragon fighting for you with an upkeep of for example 10 resources a turn (gems or whatever). If you run out of this resource the dragon leaves. Imagine how interested you would be in getting your hands on that gem mine over there

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September 26, 2009 7:30:24 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I hope magical creatures will have magic upkeep.

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September 26, 2009 9:14:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting joasoze,
I addition to your fine idea, one could add upkeep not related to gold.

 

You could have a dragon fighting for you with an upkeep of for example 10 resources a turn (gems or whatever). If you run out of this resource the dragon leaves. Imagine how interested you would be in getting your hands on that gem mine over there

Perhaps the dragon's upkeep should be 10 peasants/turn.....

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September 26, 2009 9:20:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
In most games I have played, unit strength is closely proportional to recruit-cost, recruit-time, maintenance-cost and the time/cost to build the building or research the spell that lets you get them.

I'd like some variety, like maybe units with low reseach cost and build cost, but high maintenance, or high reseach cost & build time, but low maintenance (think Kensai in Shogun Total War, or war-dogs in RomeTW), etc.

Of course, in a design-your-own-units game like Elemental seems to be, translate that into specific types of equipment, but include a full set of items on the same side of the curve, so if we want a high-cost / low maint unit we can research high-cost / low maint armor, sword, shield, etc.

Not a big big fan of the sentence from page 33 of my GalCiv2 Gold manual "Military ships have a maintenance cost as well that is approximately 3% of their original cost", and not just because I think 3% is a bit low.

 

Very good idea.  I would personally like to see military technologies that revolve around superior training, and I think that you should technically be able to raise an army instantaneously without any training whatsoever if you have an abundance of unused weapons laying around (granted, those soldiers would be just as likely to trip over their own swords.)

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September 26, 2009 10:59:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Lots of stuff to expand on.  Costs for training, costs for weapons, costs for different kinds of maintenence, cost of upkeep for horses, etcetera.  No shortage of possibilities.

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September 27, 2009 1:44:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think what would be more significant would be the type of resource needed to maintain the unit. Example, mounted units with horses would need double the amount of food as upkeep. Magic beasts may need magic crystals for upkeep.

Logically i think the more expensive a unit, the more expensive is its upkeep. It don't know wether having vastly separate maintainence and construction values would really add a lot to the mix. It might even just complicate things unneccessarily.

I think TW series makes those overpowered units take twice the time to build to keep people from churning out these units. I think its meant to maintain the game balance.

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September 27, 2009 3:24:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tormy-,

Quoting joasoze, reply 1I addition to your fine idea, one could add upkeep not related to gold.

 

You could have a dragon fighting for you with an upkeep of for example 10 resources a turn (gems or whatever). If you run out of this resource the dragon leaves. Imagine how interested you would be in getting your hands on that gem mine over there

Perhaps the dragon's upkeep should be 10 peasants/turn.....

Love thaht idea ! Like the blood virgins in dominions 3

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September 27, 2009 6:16:48 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting vieuxchat,



Quoting Tormy-,
reply 3

Quoting joasoze, reply 1I addition to your fine idea, one could add upkeep not related to gold.

 

You could have a dragon fighting for you with an upkeep of for example 10 resources a turn (gems or whatever). If you run out of this resource the dragon leaves. Imagine how interested you would be in getting your hands on that gem mine over there

Perhaps the dragon's upkeep should be 10 peasants/turn.....


Love thaht idea ! Like the blood virgins in dominions 3

Hehe indeed! I see no problems with very different & sometimes weird "upkeep materials" like peasants. Just imagine: You summon/tame a mighty otherworldly beast and you must sacrifice some humans / turn  in order to keep the beast calm. It's pretty acceptable imo.

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September 28, 2009 10:26:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tormy-,


Hehe indeed! I see no problems with very different & sometimes weird "upkeep materials" like peasants. Just imagine: You summon/tame a mighty otherworldly beast and you must sacrifice some humans / turn  in order to keep the beast calm. It's pretty acceptable imo.

Agreed, I'm thinking a group of vampires should have such an upkeep.  If there's no battles after 3 turns where the vampires can drain blood from an enemy victim... then the sovereign must choose to release the vampire(s) as independents OR feed its population OR if there's no nearby friendly cities then feed friendly units to the vampire(s).

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September 28, 2009 11:29:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting NTJedi,



Quoting Tormy-,
reply 8


Hehe indeed! I see no problems with very different & sometimes weird "upkeep materials" like peasants. Just imagine: You summon/tame a mighty otherworldly beast and you must sacrifice some humans / turn  in order to keep the beast calm. It's pretty acceptable imo.



Agreed, I'm thinking a group of vampires should have such an upkeep.  If there's no battles after 3 turns where the vampires can drain blood from an enemy victim... then the sovereign must choose to release the vampire(s) as independents OR feed its population OR if there's no nearby friendly cities then feed friendly units to the vampire(s).

"Killer" idea Jedi. I agree wholeheartedly.

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September 28, 2009 12:00:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Raven X,



Quoting NTJedi,
reply 9



Quoting Tormy-,
reply 8


Hehe indeed! I see no problems with very different & sometimes weird "upkeep materials" like peasants. Just imagine: You summon/tame a mighty otherworldly beast and you must sacrifice some humans / turn  in order to keep the beast calm. It's pretty acceptable imo.



Agreed, I'm thinking a group of vampires should have such an upkeep.  If there's no battles after 3 turns where the vampires can drain blood from an enemy victim... then the sovereign must choose to release the vampire(s) as independents OR feed its population OR if there's no nearby friendly cities then feed friendly units to the vampire(s).



"Killer" idea Jedi. I agree wholeheartedly.

Indeed...that is a fantastic idea...hopefully the devs read this topic.

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October 7, 2009 6:27:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting joasoze,
I addition to your fine idea, one could add upkeep not related to gold.

 

You could have a dragon fighting for you with an upkeep of for example 10 resources a turn (gems or whatever). If you run out of this resource the dragon leaves. Imagine how interested you would be in getting your hands on that gem mine over there

 

which is exactly why raising and levelling your very own dragon would be so very powerful!!! almost no maintanence! Well, other than the infrastructure to house the beast, all diplomatic implications, having to wait a billion turns for it to grow .. ect. Dragon Age and Level would be separate entities. A lv 10 drakeling left to mainly idle would eventually grow into a level 10 drake, with basic stats and abilities rising on a near exponential level. So dragons can gain in strength by both levelling AND simply getting older! oh my!

 

-> on the note of vampires, another possibility is to give the vampires a manor or two in a certain rural district, or large city, so that during peace-time they can live in the manor and provide for themselves, although during war-time of course they would march with the army, perhaps with their own supply of blood-pets/ cattle. During peace-time however, you would have random events that lead to public outcry against missing persons, each time slowly and subtley pointing toward the vampires. You could ignore it, relocate the vampires (at a higher cost/ aka buying another mansion for these guys), rule with an iron fist/ let the vampires instill fear into the populace. But each time you approve of the vampires' actions and mistreat your populace there is an increased chance that the city/ rural town might rebel.

Of course the lower the population the lesser the chances, and if the vampires are simply too powerful then the mobs would indefinitely be dis-inclined to act on their own but knowing that their tormentors are in fact their keepers will significantly lower their production/ efficiency. In such cases, nuetral heroes of good or neutral cause could travel/trek to seek out the vampires in order to slay them and/or lead angry mobs against them and theoretically against you. Also, evil adventurers could travel to seek succor with the vampires, in hopes they will recieve the dark gift. A small chance they will join your permanent forces, and a large chance they will join the vampire band and increase the maintanence cost.

With Vampires, I think there should be at least one living vampire dungeon as well, which would be some nuetral rural estate most likely, or some darkened castle hidden in the mountains with a population of mostly over-fed cattle (human blood-pets) ... in which case Neutral adventrurers may ask for your aid (possibly joining you FOR FREEE if you slay the vampires) or simply charge in headfirst, which would most likely end in extra experience points for the vampires. In addition, they could be slowly growing in numbers and power if sufficiently powerful evil adventurers travelled in seek of the dark gift. Of course, if you were an evil king that promised even more disirable power or reward, those same evil adventurers could be going to you to seek succor, instead of with the vampires.

Pushing my own agenda, I think there should be a few rare adventurers that prefer the temporance of Dragon religion, or the Cult of Dragon religion, and act more favorably towards civs of the Reptilian Homage civ-trait.

On Temporance of the Dragons, its a goodly religion that accepts all draconic races equally (or biased to the Draconic race that founded the religion, probably Silver, since they are the goodly dragon that has the best balance of raw magical talent and succor with humans)

On Cult of the Dragon, there could be as many as 8 different cults, probably the most common being Cult of the Red Dragon, due to its highest ranking on the evil alignment, followed by Cult of the Black Dragon. The largest cult among the metallic dragons would probably be Cult of the Golden dragon. A cult is a feverish, evil aligned, near obsessive religion, dedicated with extreme bias towards one draconic archetype.

A Cult of the Red dragon would viciously hate all other dragon types, especially the Silver draconids. A follower of CotRD would probably wish to bring back a bloodied, dying silver Wyrmling as a proper sacrifice for some meaningless ritual honoring the legacy of Red Dragons. Its brutal, grotesque, bloody, obsessive, basically an all out Cult of the damned, only filled with Dragon Worshippers.

Although Cults are not always so vicious, there are also Neutral views on Cult of the Dragon. Such nuetrals are usually based upon cult of metallic dragons, although there are rare but existing neutral cults of chromatic dragons.

The most common Nuetral Chromatic cult is the Cult of the Green Dragon. Being closely attuned to the forests, this Acidic dragon usually has the most preference of the Chromatics with direct interference in human affairs, having been known to rule their own kingdoms of men. If a sovereign was looking to make a soul-pact with a dragon, they would most likely look towards a worldly, warmongering Green Dragon for companionship and guidance.

Dark Sorcerers would be more likely to make a soul pact with a Black Dragon, merely because Swamps are the best location to find reagents, as well as to train and find well-preserved undead corpses. Such minor business dealings can sometimes end up with strong diplomatic connections between Sorcerer and Black Dragon, that could eventually turn into a blood pact/ blood oath, and eventually a Soul-pact.

Living Lairs would most likely be White, Green, or Red Dragons, while rarely a possible Silver dragon. Usually Silver Dragon-lairs would only attack evil civilizations, so attacking them is generally up to Evils or Neutrals.

Either way, once you defeat the Roosting Dragon of a living lair, you can either hire it or if youve already killed it, you can take the egg and raise a much, MUCH more loyal, and potentially more powerful dragon compainion. The downside is the long investment plan, and the upside is he/ she will potentially be a permanent part of your burdgeoning empire. A loyal life-time ally, as immortal as the sovereign himself (can live as long).

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