Does God Exist?

Can We Be Sure?

from JoeUser Forums
Is there a God? How can we be sure?

I believe this can be intelligently answered. The reason we believe He exists is He told us so and revealed Himself to us.

God is not silent. He has revealed to us who he is, what he's like and what His plans are for Planet Earth. He has revealed these things thru the bible. This is not just a mere book but the very Word of God. The evidence is more than convincing to any that will honesty investigate its claims.

Over the centuries many have tried to destroy this book to no avail. Martin Luther said in the 16th Century,

"Mighty potentates have raged against this book and sought to destroy and uproot it-Alexander the Great and princes of Egypt and Babylon the monarches of Persia, of Greece and of Rome, the Emperors Julius and Augustus-but they prevailed nothing. They are gone while the book remains and it will remain forever and ever, perfect and entire, as it was declared at first. Who has thus helped it-who has protected it against such mighty forces? No one, surely, but God Himself, who is master of all things." 1

The French skeptic Rousseau saw something different in the scriptures.

"I must confess to you that the majesty of the scriptures astonishes me; the holiness of the evangelist speaks to my heart and has such striking characters of truth and is moreover so perfectly imimitable that if it had been the invention of men, the inventiors would be greater than the greatest heroes." 2

Another reason we know that God exists is that He appeared in human flesh. Jesus was God who became a man. "The Word became flesh and lived among us." John 1:14. He also made it clear that He had come to reveal God to all that would listen, and He would show us the way .

If one wanted to know what God was like all he would have to do is look at Jesus. Lord Byron said,

"If ever man was God or God was man, Jesus Christ was both." 3

His coming back from the dead established Himself as having the credentials to be God, and it was this fact that demonstrated truth to the unbelieving world.

So we have the Bible and the person of Jesus Christ as two strong reasons for the existence of God. No other religion or philosophy gives us near the comfort in knowing that there is a loving God who cares and is involved in our everyday life.




1-Fritz Ridenour, Who says G.L. Publications, Regal Books, 1967
2-Encylocopedia of Religious Quotations, Frank Mead, p32
3-Encylocopedia of Religious Quotations, Frank Mead, p81
religion
16,640 views 144 replies
Reply #1 from JoeUser Forums Top

Does God exist?

Yes.  But not in the way you might think.  There are many, many faces to God (or at least the deity I know, anyway).  Everyone has to choose their own path.

Personally, I feel more affinity with Gnosticism, Buddhism and Taoism than I do with Christianity.  But, that's just me.

Reply #2 from JoeUser Forums Top
hmmmm I know some about Buddhism but was wondering....what is your definition of Gnosticism? Doesn't it have something to do with Knowledge?
Galactic Civilizations III
Reply #3 from JoeUser Forums Top
I believe that 'proof' that God exists would nullify the need for faith.

And, as I believe faith is central to my worship of God, there can be no solid 'proof', other than that which I have experienced in my studies and my own life. That is sufficient for me.
Reply #4 from JoeUser Forums Top

There are many, many faces to God

Theodore Sturgeon - The Nine Billion Names of God!

But to the point, the greatest destructors of faith are not the ones that try to destroy it, it is those who do evil in the name of it.

Reply #5 from JoeUser Forums Top
Well from a Christian perspective the definition of FAITH is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

We may not "see" God in the physical but we believe the evidence is there. We "see" him in the spiritual.

Another way to look at it is to use as an acronym....F-A-I-T-H. Forsaking All I Trust Him.

While I do know many follow God blindly I don't see where he asks us to blindly follow him. I believe our Faith is built on evidence. For some like skeptics like me.....I like evidence. But at this point in my life do I still call on God to show me this? No. Not anymore.
Reply #6 from JoeUser Forums Top
Another way to look at it is to use as an acronym....F-A-I-T-H. Forsaking All I Trust Him.


Hey... I've seen that before.



Nichole Nordeman says it better than I ever could...



Fool For You

There are times when faith and common sense do not align
When hard-core evidence of You is hard to find
And I am silenced in the face of argumentative debate
And it's a long hill; it's a lonely climb'

Cause they want proof
They want proof of all these mysteries I claim'
Cause only fools would want to chant a dead man's name
Maybe it's true

But I would be a fool for You
All because You asked me to
A simpleton who's seemingly naive
I do believe You came and made
Yourself a fool for me

I admit that in my darkest hours I've asked, "What if?"
What if we created some kind of man-made faith like this?
Out of good intention or emotional invention
And after life is through, there will be no You

'Cause they want proof of all these miracles I claim
'Cause only fools believe that men can walk on waves
Maybe it's true

Unaware of popularity
Unconcerned with dignity
You made me free
That's proof enough for me

I would be a fool for You
Only if You asked me to
A simpleton who's only thinking of the cause of love

I will speak Jesus' name
And if that makes me crazy, they can call me crazed
I'm happy to be seemingly naive
I do believe You came and made Yourself a fool for me



Luke 16:19-31 (New International Version)New International Version (NIV)Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society The Rich Man and Lazarus 19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[a] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "Footnotes:Luke 16:23 Greek: Hades



I can be sure God exists, because I see His hand at work in my life. He's proven His Word to be true in my life. From personal experience, I can say -- without a doubt -- that He is real and involved in my life. I don't need "evidence," although I believe it is all around me. Scientific studies and archaelogical digs don't do much for me. What's real to me is that I can see Him at work in me and in my circumstances every day. I can sense His strength when I am weak... I can feel His peace when I need it most... I watch Him provide for me in miraculous ways. I seek His guidance and receive it -- through His Word, through other Christians, through circumstances. That's all the proof I need. Yes. I'm sure.
Reply #7 from JoeUser Forums Top
You've given no proof at all. Better stick with taking things on faith and stay out of the proof business.

And to answer your title question, "No."
Reply #8 from JoeUser Forums Top
Gnosticism is a historical term for various mystical initiatory religions, sects and knowledge schools which were most active in the first few centuries C.E. around the Mediterranean and extending into central Asia. These systems typically recommend the pursuit of special knowledge (gnosis) as the central goal of life.

Source: Wikipedia Link

Have you heard of or read the Gnostic Gospels, buried for centuries and found at Nag Hammadi? There are over a hundred Gospels that contradict the four accepted or Orthodox Gospels. Some of the Gnostic Gospels purport to have been written by James, brother of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Mary's gospel states quite authoritively that Jesus appeared to her as a ghost. Jesus was not believed to have "risen" for 200 years after his death. See Link

The Gnostic Gospels were disputed and "destroyed" by the church for threatening the church's authority. Buried in the desert by a adherent, they survived hidden for centuries. Early Christianity was practiced quite differently than modern Christianity. For one thing, women had equal stature in the early church, their was no Papal authority, people were free to seek after truth in their own fashion. After the Emperor Constantine a lifelong pagan, made Christianity the official religion of Rome, beliefs from other religions were integrated to form the basis for modern Christianity.

Martin Luther was referring to the Old Testament or Torah in the cited quote, I believe. He found Judaism quite appealing....until the Jews of Germany refused to convert. Then he became anti-Semitic.

If you feel the Hand of God on you in your everyday life, consider yourself blessed. But the existence of God or the primacy of a single vision of God can't be proved. Hence the term "Faith."

References:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism#The_Nag_Hammadi_library

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Magdalene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library#Complete_list_of_codices_found_in_Nag_Hammadi
Reply #9 from JoeUser Forums Top
There are many, many faces to God (or at least the deity I know, anyway). Everyone has to choose their own path.


Absolutely. That's the way it is,
Reply #10 from JoeUser Forums Top
If you feel the Hand of God on you in your everyday life, consider yourself blessed. But the existence of God or the primacy of a single vision of God can't be proved. Hence the term "Faith."


Well said Larry.

believe that 'proof' that God exists would nullify the need for faith.


I agree BlueDev.
Reply #11 from JoeUser Forums Top
'I believe our Faith is built on evidence.'
Wrong, KFC! As BlueDev puts it, ' I believe that 'proof' that God exists would nullify the need for faith.' Faith is belief specifically in the ABSENCE of evidence.

Now, to answer your initial questions: 'Does God Exist? Can We Be Sure?'
If God exists - yes, and yes, but only after we die.
If God doesn't exist - no, and no.
Reply #12 from JoeUser Forums Top
Now, to answer your initial questions: 'Does God Exist? Can We Be Sure?'
If God exists - yes, and yes, but only after we die.
If God doesn't exist - no, and no


I think we can be sure. It's no longer "faith" for me. I know that God exists. Some people might interpret that as arrogance, but it's my own truth. God definitely exists. Must be a sixth-sense, or something of the like.
Reply #13 from JoeUser Forums Top
I know that God exists.


You can know it for yourself but you can't prove it to others. If you could, you would most certainly change the world as we know it!
Reply #14 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes, I agree. It can only be proved for oneself, when we're ready.

We are spiritual beings, and "God is Spirit", (a Biblical teaching - John 4.24, Geneses 1.27), which means that it's all a question of Spirit. This in turn means that by definition, it's all 'subjective stuff'.
Reply #15 from JoeUser Forums Top
JillUser:
You can know it for yourself but you can't prove it to others. If you could, you would most certainly change the world as we know it!


Amen! Knowledge of God comes from God alone. We can talk about Him, discuss theology and even have wars and blame them on Him, but in the end, my knowledge of His existance doesn't go very far in proving it to someone else.

Those of us who are raised by parents who teach us about God can only go so far on the teachings of our parents. Whether a person is raised with a particular belief or not, there comes a time in everyone's life that they have to decide for themselves. That is when true faith comes in.
Reply #16 from JoeUser Forums Top
You can know it for yourself but you can't prove it to others. If you could, you would most certainly change the world as we know it!


It doesn't have to be the whole world. It can just be one person at a time!
Reply #17 from JoeUser Forums Top
Proving G-D exists is like proving wind exists. You cannot see it. You cannot touch it. Wind is not tangible. but you can see the effects of it.
Reply #18 from JoeUser Forums Top
"why yes, yes I do"
Reply #19 from JoeUser Forums Top
Yes I agree with you Dude. Nicely said. I love the analogy of the sailboat on the water. You can't see the force behind it but you can see the effects as it moves across the water. That's what non-Christians should see in Christians. They should see the effects of their God behind them. We are called to be salt and light.

I also agree with all that say you can't prove to another. I agree. I'm just saying there is proof out there if one chooses to "see" but it is a you and God personal thing to be sure.

Knowledge does come from God alone. I did nothing to have recognized God in my life. I was a dead person before he breathed spiritual life into me. I'm not even sure why he sought me out. I don't feel I deserve it. I'm honored and love God so much more when I think that not only did he send his son to die for me but that he chose me from the foundation of the world. If he was fair he would have turned his back on me. God does know that I deserve it.

But he's a loving and merciful God and loves me too much to leave me the way I am now. He is as real to me as the wind on my face and alive to me as my own sons are. Someday we will all find out one way or the other and all our questions will be answered. I'm looking forward to that day.
Reply #20 from JoeUser Forums Top
Larry,

What is your definition of anti-semetic? While I have heard MLuther was anti-semetic I know of no such truth behind the rumor.

As far as the Gnostic gospels....yes I have heard of them. They not only contradict the 4 gospels we have now but they also contradict themselves.

Hundreds of writings were circulating in the Roman Empire. For more than 50 yrs Christians had relied on 20 or so writings.....the 4 gospels, Acts, Paul's 13 letters, 1 Peter, 1 John and Revelation. Many believers also used Hebrews, 2 John, 3 John and Jude. A few churches accepted three other books.....2 Peter, the Revelation of Peter and the Shepherd of Hermas.

To decide which writings should guide the church, Christians asked three main questions.

1. Is the book connected to an apostle?
2. Do churches throughout the world use the book?
3. Does the book agree with what we already kknow about God?

Eventually most churches realized that Peter's Revelation and the Shepherd of Hermas were frauds. Despite continuing debates about a few books, by AD 200 God had led churches throughout the Empire to recognize one basic canon.

Reply #21 from JoeUser Forums Top
'I think we can be sure. It's no longer "faith" for me. I know that God exists. Some people might interpret that as arrogance, but it's my own truth. God definitely exists. Must be a sixth-sense, or something of the like.'

Hi Andy, good to cross paths with you again. On this point, however, while YOU can say you're sure, WE - in the general 'humanity' sense in which it is used in the header - cannot. You may 'know' that God exists, but an atheist may 'know' that he doesn't (perhaps through his own 'sixth sense'), and neither can justifiably claim superiority through special insight.

'That's what non-Christians should see in Christians. They should see the effects of their God behind them.'

Doesn't make sense, KFC. If we did, there would be no 'non-Christians', as we'd all be card-carrying Christians, surely? And if you're saying that your God is interventionist, in that he supports and looks after his own, then it ought to be child's play to compile statistics that back that up, right?

Instead, what we 'non-Christians' see is the effects of Christians' BELIEF in their God upon their behaviour. Everything that you might care to identify as 'the effects of their God behind them' is easily and directly attributable to earthly influences, motives and beliefs without any need to seek recourse to a higher existence.
Reply #22 from JoeUser Forums Top
Someday we will all find out one way or the other and all our questions will be answered.


Amen to that KFC,

I did nothing to have recognized God in my life. I was a dead person before he breathed spiritual life into me. I'm not even sure why he sought me out. I don't feel I deserve it. I'm honored and love God so much more when I think that not only did he send his son to die for me but that he chose me from the foundation of the world. If he was fair he would have turned his back on me. God does know that I deserve it.

But he's a loving and merciful God and loves me too much to leave me the way I am now. He is as real to me as the wind on my face


Here you’re implying that the believer has no say in the matter KFC. It’s up to God whether a person believes or not. I personally agree with this, or at least I believe that it’s a case of when the person is ready. When a person has reached a particular stage on their path, then God will awaken them, or open their ‘spiritual eyes’, so to speak. It’s true that most atheists don’t have much choice in their non-belief. It's where they're at, and it's how they sincerely feel. Many people don’t believe in God, and go to the grave in this state of mind and heart, even after having given the issue deep thought and sincere searching throughout life.

What are your views regarding this KFC, and how does it fit in with a fundamentalist point of view? Many people claim that unbelievers will be punished in hell forever after death.

Hi Andy, good to cross paths with you again.


Hi Furry, it’s good to see you. Yes, it’s nice to cross paths again.

You may 'know' that God exists, but an atheist may 'know' that he doesn't (perhaps through his own 'sixth sense'), and neither can justifiably claim superiority through special insight.


I don’t think that it’s a question of superiority, or anything like that. It’s more a question of ‘where the soul is at’. We’re all at different stages along the spiritual path, and I’m sure that no stage is any less significant than any other. I believe that we’re all where we need to be, in terms of our soul’s needs and experiences, (which might be different to our personality’s needs and desires, incidentally. While the personality might seek greater material wealth, or worldly adoration, or a ‘perfect’ romantic partner etc, God might have a different agenda in mind. It’s soul work that we’re up to down here, and hardship and material lack can promote spiritual growth, humility and maturity.)

From my own point of view, if an atheist said to me, “God does not exist”, then I’d conclude that he or she has room for spiritual growth. I wouldn’t say it, mind, as it would be futile and he’d probably think I was arrogant, or just plain wrong.

I believe that atheism has its place in the bigger picture. God, who is all powerful and all knowing, could easily have put into the human condition and into every human mind unequivocal knowledge that God exists. Why, then, did He not? Clearly there’s good reason, because God is infinitely wise.

(It might be something to do with the principle that in order to fully appreciate the security, goodness, joy, and the sense of purpose of our eternal life in Heaven, we first need to experience ‘lack of purpose’, insecurity, doubt etc. Life on this side of Heaven enables us to experience the full scope of wisdom, which includes atheistic belief and the view that life is an "accident". Atheism is an innovative and profound notion, in context with true reality.)

In answer to your point Furry, I don’t think that it matters whether we ‘know’ that God exists or not. Both sides are significant experiences. Once we experience one side at a deeper ‘heart level’, however, we won’t go back to the other, for sure. The whole issue of spirituality is subjective by nature, and it’s true that we won’t find proof of God’s existence via traditional materialistic science. The science of the soul is a different matter, though, and during our time on earth, “the Kingdom of God is within”, as Jesus said.

On this point, however, while YOU can say you're sure, WE - in the general 'humanity' sense in which it is used in the header - cannot.


I believe that spiritual growth operates on an individual basis as well as on a larger scale of humanity’s evolution (i.e. as a ‘global consciousness’). In my view, atheism will eventually become an antiquated philosophy in the popular mind. But that’s just my view, and many here will obviously disagree.

I believe that the next phase of human evolution is spiritual awareness and heightened intuition, in which we’ll move from the ‘flat-earth’ perspective of reality, (i.e. the current intellectual viewpoint that everything is brute materialism, and that all is death and finality), to seeing the larger perspective of spiritual Truth, (i.e. the view that the Heavenly dimension is our true reality, that death is not the end, and that God is the sustaining force and loving Creator of all things.)

You can know it for yourself but you can't prove it to others. If you could, you would most certainly change the world as we know it!

It doesn't have to be the whole world. It can just be one person at a time!


I’m sure that another person’s views cannot make any difference to our own, at a heart level. If our spirit is ready, then this ‘knowing’, or awakening, will occur regardless. Even if we think that it had been prompted by something else, like an inspiring book, or a tragedy in life, or by hearing a bird sing in spring, it would have happened anyway if the time was right. The prompt could be anything. It doesn’t necessarily happen overnight either. It can unfold steadily over many, many years, which I think is how it happens for most.
Reply #23 from JoeUser Forums Top
'In answer to your point Furry, I don’t think that it matters whether we ‘know’ that God exists or not.'
I tend to agree, Andy. (Actually I think it is important that we DON'T know, but that's an argument for another time.) But it wasn't my point to begin with - it was that of KFC in writing the original blog!

'Both sides are significant experiences. Once we experience one side at a deeper ‘heart level’, however, we won’t go back to the other, for sure.'
For sure? Deeper experience leads to not going back, going back implies absence of deeper experience. i.e. It's a cyclic argument, and thus impossible to prove. To an atheist such as myself, people both adopt and abandon their beliefs everyday. It seems quite reasonable to me that those who don't lose faith may not have had any deeper experience, but just a greater personal capacity for faith to begin with.

'The whole issue of spirituality is subjective by nature, and it’s true that we won’t find proof of God’s existence via traditional materialistic science.'
Agreed.

'The science of the soul is a different matter, though, and during our time on earth, “the Kingdom of God is within”, as Jesus said.'
Here I disagree fundamentally with your terminology. Frequently I find myself defending science against accusations of atheism and reductionism, often here on JU. (Incidentally, you make something of a suggestion to this end yourself above, albeit in a roundabout way - I would argue from personal experience that one can subscribe to a scientific or rational view of the world and yet still find it a marvellous and rewarding place to live in; i.e. it is not necessary to conclude that 'all is death and finality'.) Each time, I make the point that science does not have an agenda on - let alone any claim to have 'dismissed' or 'disproven' - spirituality, but that spirituality is by definition outside science's remit. Consequently, there can be no 'science of the soul'. Let's leave the soul to religion, and detectable phenomena to science.

'I’m sure that another person’s views cannot make any difference to our own, at a heart level.'
But doesn't this imply that you think all preaching, missionary work, charity, theological investigation is inherently futile?
Reply #24 from JoeUser Forums Top
Great thoughts and discussion guys.

Yes Andy I'm saying it's all God and not man. This is a very deep issue and one debated within the fundamentalists as well. I have looked at predestination at length and believe it's God who predestines. It's not about our will....it's all about his will be done. Paul writes about this in Eph 1 & 2 especially but it's seen throughout scripture. Jesus said...."You did not choose me but it is I that chose you."

We all deserve death. Sin separates us from God. It started in the garden. Adam was given the title deed to the earth. But because of the deception of Satan the deed was snatched from his hands. Satan from the get go has wanted to usurp God and kick him off his throne. Of course this is not going to happen but in the meantime he's going after the people that God loves. If you can't get at the one you're aiming for you go after what means the most to them. Satan is blinded by pride. He says...."I will asend" "I will be the most high." "I will be God." It's all about me, myself and I to him. When Christ died on that cross Satan's kingship was doomed. The title deed is now in the hands of the one who defeated Satan at the cross. With Christ it was all about the ones he loved, putting himself in the servant's position even to the point of dying for them.

When Jesus performed the footwashing in John 13 it was to teach many things to his disciples. One of course is humility. They were to serve....not to lord it over the people they met. Another lesson buried in there was the fact that we are walking in a sinful, dirty world. We will get dirty.....Christians or not. While we don't need a full bath (got that at conversion) we do need to cleanse our feet. That's why Peter said...."Cleanse all of me." In order to be in God's presence we need to be clean. He is a holy God and he does not allow sin in his presence.

That's why his son was sent. We who do believe are cleansed by the blood of the lamb. We now are able to be in God's presence someday and he will open the door for us to come in. When he looks at us, he does so thru the precious blood of his son. Christ is the mediator. He is the lamb of the OT that were sacrificed on a yearly basis for the sins of the Jewish people.

The ones who do not believe will be judged only on their "good works." But they will come up short. How good is good enough? God says that even our best works are like filthy rags and that none of us are righteous not one. Many are amazed that Jesus talked more about hell than he did heaven. So yes I do believe in hell. It's total separation from God and that's what makes it hell. Death is separation. When we die physically our physical body is separated from our soul. When we die spiritually our spirit is separated from God. Born once die twice......born twice.....die once.

So Furry while it's not our preaching or teaching or missionary work that saves a person.....God uses us to reach others. He has always used man to do his work. Man teaching man. Jesus said right before he left....go out and tell others. But ultimately it's God who does the heart surgery....we just do the prep work.

Reply #25 from JoeUser Forums Top
I believe that 'proof' that God exists would nullify the need for faith.


Astute observation, of which I concur. Faith has greater value to man verses knowing fact in many cases. Believing in a greater spirit helps me stay the line of over coming my imperfections.

there comes a time in everyone's life that they have to decide for themselves. That is when true faith comes in.

Like in a hole as tracers dance over head. Or when "man" makes a mistake. One that he knows will ride him for life, that's when he reach's out and discovers faith giving him a way to live and move forward.