Mel Gibson's "Passion"

an agnostic's view

Saw "The Passion of the Christ" on Wednesday when it opened. Could have posted this sooner, but didn't because (a) I wanted to internalize the movie a bit more, and (b) I'm at a place where the Internet is slower than my fiance's driving. Advance apologies for typos but the keyboard : monitor delay is a good three seconds sometimes, and I type really fast.

Entered the theatre wondering about the merit of the anti-Semitism claims. Figured I'd give the movie a fair shot since I have general respect for Gibson and no respect for racism. Was raised Christian, tend toward agnostic, like several things about buddhism and believe in evolution. Those are the claims I tried to put aside at the door.

I didn't find the movie to be anti-Semitic, and I looked. At one point Jesus says to Pilate, "The sins of the one who brought me here are greater than yours." At first I thought he was referring to the Jewish leaders, which would obviously be viewed as anti-Semitic by some (though, can a Semite be anti-semitic? can I hate white people even though I am one? or the french because I'm french? no; maybe?). Anyway, I think Jesus was referring to Satan as the one whose sins were greater than Pilate's, or else the sins of the world. If it was God's plan for Jesus to die that way (and I'm not going to get into that), then Pilate (or the Sanhedrin) didn't actually have a choice (also not going to discuss pre-destination). Perhaps that's why the Christianity I have known, which isn't Gibson's version, has viewed him so sympathetically, and the juxtaposition of his sympathetic character next to the Sanhedrin makes for a very stark picture.

As for the Jewish leaders, the Sanhedrin, at one point even Caiphas, the Jewish head honcho, turns away from the flogging because it was too much for him. So there was humanity in those leaders, particularly in the end where they enter the temple after the earthquake to see the curtain dividing the sanctuary from the most holy place rent into two; the looks on their faces are, "What have we done?" It's almost like their realisation of their actions came too late, but was there nonetheless.

I liked the movie very much; it felt real in that gritty way. The acting was well-done except, perhaps, for John the beloved; he seemed pretty flat. There were a few continuity issues from frame to frame, though noting compared to any of the LOTR continuity problems. Overall the story line and characters were very similar to the gospel story; there were some additions, including Jesus' dialogue, but it stayed pretty close. I didn't feel there was too much violence, and it was never gratuitious. Even when covered my eyes I could still hear it, and when the camera was focused on the crowd during the flogging, it was the sound that elicited the emotions in my brain more than the pictures. It was real; it was hard to grapple with; but it wasn't gratuitious. The character of Satan added complexity and intrigue. Didn't like the part where he was holding that naked child devil, or whatever that was; seemed unnecessary. Good acting. Good lighting effects in the Gethsemane scene. Even the extras were believable, and they're the ones that can ruin movies for me. Judas was complex, though not as much as I read into the story.

I would fault the movie on a couple things: I think Pilate could have been weak behind doors, but not in front of the crowd--not a man in his position. His character did seem too flimsy. Similarly, I think that two of the Roman guards (note: not Jews) were too vindictive about their task (if anything, the film is anti-Centurian). Both Pilate and those guards just went a little too far with their roles. The part with the crow or raven was sick and shouldn't have been there.

Phenomenal ending. Best. Panned. Shot. Ever. (the one in the tomb)

The bottom line: I see it reinforcing the faith of Christians. I don't see it evangelizing athiests, Jews, or Eastern religions to Christianity. Agnostics, maybe. The view Gibson's portrayed of Jesus, the Sanhedrin, and Pilate is a very traditional view the Christian church has held. I don't think it is anti-semitic nor was I ever raised to think so.

I once heard a rabbi say, "The Christians, they're looking for the second coming; us, we're looking for the first. Maybe it's the same thing." Maybe.
20,433 views 41 replies
Reply #1 Top
Enjoyed your article.....i was agnostic too until i did the math. It is stated that as humankind, we possess MAYBE 10 percent of all knowledge in the universe. There are approximately 6 billion people on earth.....meaning I posses 1/6000000000th of 10 percent of all universal knowledge. Given the likelihood that my limited understanding of the universe was in error by questioning the existence of God, I took the rest on faith, studied the bible, talked to some friends and now, I am a minister. Who'd a thunk it?
Reply #2 Top
Insightful review. As a Christian I found it to be a strengthening factor and a painful reminder. I agree with your assessment that the movie is not a evangelizing tool for strictly non-Christians. Agnostics maybe if their background is Christian and and maybe others who have been looking into Christianity.
Reply #3 Top
Enjoyed reading your view Angloesque, Was just wondering if the picture did anything to change your agnostic ideas? I have to agree with you about John. I was saying the same thing on the way home. What you wrote confirmed exactly what I was thinking. I thought the actor could have put more into it. As for the crow part. There was no scripture for that. I also agree with you that this part could have been deleted. The Satan and the baby scene. Hmm... My interpretation of this was perhaps showing that this was Satan and the anti-Christ (which is the son of Satan) preparing to make the world their kingdom now that they got Jesus out of the way. Thats all I can figure it out to be. It would be interesting to hear other opinions on this. I also did not thing the movie was in the least anti- Semitic, thats exactly the way the story went in the bible. If anyone is guilty it is all of us, for we all have sinned. GCJ
Reply #4 Top
The best thing that a religous film can accomplish is to encourage debate. Lets face, movies are not a replacement for worship. Debate is good, whatever the milieu. GemCityJoe and I, for example, have very different ideas. We have discussed them on Joeuser many times and, while we have disagreed, I think that we are better for sharing our ideas. I hope that Joe agrees.
The Passion of the Christ has certainly stirred discussion. All to the good. At the very least, it encourages people to think about their own beliefs and to hopefully examine those beliefs in light of what others think.

The worst thing that can come of a movie, is that it discourages debate by presenting a position so forcefully that people either accept it or don't. My sense is that the only people who want to discourage debate are those that labeled the movie ant-semitic without even seeing it. Bad idea. I am frankly ashamed of some people's response.

Happy Sunday to all!
Reply #5 Top
Thanks for the review. i have been debating whether or not to see it, your comment help.
Reply #6 Top
I seen an interview with Mel Gibson and he was talking about that part. I missed some of it, but what I caught was in that scene only Mary could see satan and they made eye contact. So I think the devil was mocking Mary because her Son was going through so much. I think the devil knew he would never get Jesus out of the way thats why he didnt want Him to go throug with the crucifiction because then everyones sins could be forgiven then.
Reply #7 Top
GCJ,

Was just wondering if the picture did anything to change your agnostic ideas?
End of quote


Well, in short, no. I still wonder if the writers of the gospels glamourized Jesus and what he was doing (I believe in his historical character, but am undecided on whether or not he was the Son of God). It doesn't quite make sense to me that this was God's big plan for redemption--I have to wonder if there was a better way (and that's assuming that there is a God--I wonder if there are more gods but one uber-God). I still think that since religion is fundamental to all cultures, there has to be some sort of God or myriad gods. Who they are and what they're like is where I'm agnostic. It's a crappy position to be in, too; I miss the nice fundamentalism that was much easier to believe in. Stupid education. ;)

Also, I was intrigued by your analysis of that baby or anti-Christ. I've always thought that just Satan was the anti-christ.

Larry,

The best thing that a religous film can accomplish is to encourage debate.
End of quote


I quite agree. That's why I hate to see disparaging comments made towards creation/evolution, a pet interest of mine, because it's the debate that keeps both sides constantly checking themselves. Good perspective.

-T.
Reply #9 Top
I like the book better. Mr. Gibson's interpretation is far too bloody and EASY (despite Mel's claims) to get away with in this day and age. Mel has said that if you have problems with his movie, it's not his fault...you must have issues with the Bible. Wow, what an egomaniac to say that what he portrayed on film was a story from the bible...NOT so much! The basis for his movie was in the Bible, but not the bloodfest. Which Gospel was the story of Jesus inventing the dinner table in? After reading accounts from various sources (non-biblical) I get the sense that his portrayal of the whipping and crucifixion was correct (though Mel must not buy the wrist and ankle placement of nails; demonstrated in archeological specimens). But that doesn't make his story biblical. I only felt one thing leaving that theater. Boy, am I glad that's over. What I gather from this movie and Mr. Gibson's other bloodfest specials (Braveheart, The Patriot, LW1-4) is that he believes the only way to influence beliefs is through violence...isn't that what Jesus's executioners were attempting to do? At least I can put my mind at ease knowing that Gibson can't make a sequel...or can he?
Reply #10 Top
Was trying to figure out what "fff" means. Among the nicer things I came up with are the following from acronymfinder.com:

Family Friendly Forum
Fast Forward Financial
Fast Forward Flight
Federation Française de Football
Federation of Flyfishers
Feed-Forward Filter
Fehntjer-Fußball-Fruend
Fight for Freedom
Final Fantasy Fans
First Frame First
Fit for Fight
Flicker Fusion Frequency
Form, Fit, Function
Forte Forissimo
Fortisissimo
Fortune 500 Index
Forum for FÃ¥reskaller
Freeze Frame Fun
Frequency Flat-Fading
Fuel Fabrication Facilty
Fun Fearless Female
Future Fighting Force
Future of Freedom Foundation

I'm sure the anonymous guy meant Family Friendly Forum. :)

-T.
Reply #11 Top
The basis for his movie was in the Bible, but not the bloodfest.

Mr. Gibson's other bloodfest specials

his portrayal of the whipping and crucifixion was correct


So the violent parts were accurate, but the movie was too violent? What do you want?
Reply #12 Top
Dear Mr. B. Head,
If I was too vague or, as I see by your highlighting prowess, too contradictory in my opinions, then I will re-state: Mr. Gibson's interpretation of the last 12 hours of the life of Jesus adds nothing to the already well done story in the Bible. If you want a lesson in torture and crucifixion, go read historical accounts of it. But SEEING rubber skin and red jello flying across the screen does not affirm my faith. Does it yours? If you think, that because He endured hours of torture that this must be the King...if He were just a man, what choice would He have had and how would that make Him different from the thousands that suffered that same fate? What made him different was His love for us and forgiving nature ...MG misses the point of His story of love, teaching and forgiveness in favor of a shockumentary of Jesus's execution. Is that better or am I still too babbling for you?
...noticing your flare for splicing comments, have you considered working for the Factor?
Reply #13 Top
So, because you're a minister now, you must be right in your 1/60000000000th of knowledge or what is the probability that you're STILL wrong. Maybe you should try ski instructor?
Reply #14 Top
If you want a lesson in torture and crucifixion, go read historical accounts of it.


Officially the most stupid thing in your paragraph. "Reading about it is plenty; you shouldn't need a visual presentation!" If you've ever seen a movie, you're a hypocrite. Just read the script.


But SEEING rubber skin and red jello flying across the screen does not affirm my faith. Does it yours?


Since I have no such faith to start with, no.


If you think, that because He endured hours of torture that this must be the King


I think the point is to convey, vividly, Jesus's willingness to suffer (terribly) for the sins of humanity. If you believe in that sort of thing.


Is that better or am I still too babbling for you?


It's better, but you're still babbling.


noticing your flare for splicing comments


I don't take them out of context. You said what you said; stand by it or admit your error.
Reply #15 Top
If you've ever seen a movie, you're a hypocrite. Just read the script.
>>I'm talking about those pop-up books...not actual reading. I never do that. That's why my paragraphs are so silly;->
the point is to convey, vividly, Jesus's willingness to suffer (terribly) for the sins of humanity
>>I believe in the ability of one's imagination to carry that moment. If a director doesn't trust his audience to know the horrific nature of the told events...what does that say? One need not see a murder to know that it is a horrible event. There are many well done films that do much with a story without having to portray every detail- I think it is an art to do so- to witness what Mel did is spectacle. Yes, I did go see it (I also rubberneck at accidents and love WWF;-)-so that makes me a hypocrite to 'preach' that there should be a better way to tell the story, but if someone decides not to see it because I THOUGHT the movie awful, then maybe that's good.
I have no such faith to start
>>I did not mean for you to state your beliefs, nor am I making a statement of my religious beliefs.
Reply #16 Top
I went to see the movie yesterday and I am one of those who can say that it is not anti-semitic. Be that it may, if I were a Jew, I would use that movie as my evidence that the land that is presently called Palestine is all Jewish land. This movie proves that there were Jews over 2000 years ago and not a single Palestinian soul. I am not aware that there were any Jews that became Arabs.

That the word Palestinian was a British invention and has no historical basis before 20th century.

Encourage all members of the UN to watch the film and explain that more than 2000 years ago, the people that lived in Galilee, Narareth, Jordan River, etc were all Jews. Pilate and his legions were there just like MacArthur in Japan.

The British, through wars, governed those lands and gave land titles to the Arabs and Bedoins, but historically, the land belongs to the Jews. God through Moses endowed these lands to the Jews.

See yuh!

aconservative

Reply #17 Top
Encourage all members of the UN to watch the film and explain that more than 2000 years ago


Right after you encourage the UN to kick all the white people out of the Americas; two thousand years ago, they belonged to the Natives.
Reply #18 Top
A point I was just about to make, BulbousHead. Good one.
Reply #19 Top
What I was referring to is this - The theft-by-expropriation of more Palestinian land for the fence will certainly result in Palestinian families leaving or being forced out of their ancestral lands and homes.

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Special%20Section/Closure/ethnic_cleansing_with_guns.htm

Palestinians claim that it is their ancestral land.

I did not encourage the UN to kick all the white people of the Americas. Only liberals and socialists do such a things. To conservatives, the UN is a debating society without guts, yet liberals use it to air their leftist thoughts as if they can do anything. But then, if you remove the UN, where will the leaders of those emerging countries get their "wealth".

I am a minority and I am not white. I respect the fact that without the white race, the natives as you say will still be "natives".

aconservative
Reply #20 Top
aconservative: The land wherein the jews resided in that time was not Jewish, but Roman. The jews were subjects who located there as Rome allowed. Palestine does have mention in the Bible though and the 'converso' Jews have attached themselves to many, many cultures and powers throughout history, Christoforo Columbo himself being one. For purposes of the Census in the USA, the Jew is actually counted as "White" or European, the only group of the Middle East to receive such treatment. They don't object, wonder why. A further reading of the land of Palestine will show the Moslems once gave sanctuary to Jews when the world was hunting them down. Trumans Order allowing the creation of the Israel State does not legitimize them as owners of that sand.
Reply #21 Top
For those of you who doubt that Jesus is the Son of God, who may feel they have been "educated beyond such conclusions," I would implore you to read a book called "The Case for Christ," by Lee Strobel, who was an unbelieving investigative journalist at the time he wrote it.
While our intellect will not ever get everything correct, it is refreshing and amazing to see just how completely the gospel is true, not only for our heart and spirit, but also for our intellect, if only we investigate the real facts, instead of trying to come to conclusions with the bits of incomplete information we pick up in life without much effort.
Reply #22 Top
While our intellect will not ever get everything correct, it is refreshing and amazing to see just how completely the gospel is true, not only for our heart and spirit, but also for our intellect, if only we investigate the real facts


The Gospels' value as journalism must be questioned since they were written decades after Jesus died based presumably on oral histories and memory.
Reply #23 Top
wakhonta:

I hope you are not "agnostic". Didn't "God" gave Moses the land title of those lands? If you believe this - Moses was a Jew.

aconservative
Reply #24 Top
Didn't "God" gave Moses the land title of those lands?


God gave out deeds? This is a new twist...
Reply #25 Top
Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary;
but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence
to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for
a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs (Gentiles=The Romans) have compassed me:
the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet.

Isaiah 53:
[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows:
yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

John 11:
[49] And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
[50] Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
[51] And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
[52] And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Isaiah 52:
[13] Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
[14] As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man,
and his form more than the sons of men:
[15] So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him:
for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had
not heard shall they consider.

Isaiah 11
[10] And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse,
which shall stand for an ensign of the people;
to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isaiah 42
[1] Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect,
in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him:
he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
[6] I the LORD have called thee in righteousness,
and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee,
and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Isaiah 50:[6] I gave my back to the smiters,
and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair:
I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

The movie is Wonderful. We are in a world-wide Spiritual
Revival right now! A woman told me she was in a "big" book
store and it was filled with teens wanting to buy
books on Jesus. This is only a tip of the iceberg
of what the Holy Spirit is going to do.