The path to success isn't that rocky

Just on the first sentence about being down on your own abilities...

It's a very fine line between between being confident and out-right lieing. I know may people who got jobs based on saying they had skills they honestly didn't. They listed XML on their resumes because they had a class that talked about them etc... My friends and I who had a harder time finding work probably were honest to a fault when interviewing or applying for positions. For me, if a job lists 10 things as required skills and I have less than 7, I don't apply... or if in an interview they ask if I know Technology X and I don't, I say so.

Maybe it's my own personal ethics getting in the way, but I figure a company will be much happier with me (and me with them) if they hire me for a job they think I can actually do. Those who lied their way into jobs are in a lot of trouble right now as a result.

Or is it possible to be too honest?

Uh oh, I think Brad had to fire someone today.

Seriously, are you sure they "Just don't care"? I mean many people wear out of a job, or don't like the work environment (yes, even Stardocks i'd imagine), and simply coast through doing what they want, and waiting for the ultimate termination to come.(and expecting it) In the meantime they are usually job shopping long before that happens.(or already have new work) Happens all of the time, and i'm guilty of doing that quite regularly myself, but it seldom isn't a surprise and it isn't unwelcome when it occurs.

Oh and everyone exaggerates and lies to get positions. I read a magazine article that said 86% of people they polled lied on resumes or during interviews. Companies lie all of the time, so can you really blame people? Lieing can get you a job you are unqualified for, and by the time they figure it out, you can usually make $15,000-30,000 in a short time. Then if you don't really need money or are independantly wealthy you can skate the rest of the year sitting around playing Xbox and enjoying life. If by chance you learn and adapt the position and they never catch on, then you are in a nice new career. It really is a win-win situation to exaggerate or mislead on resumes and certainly isn't breaking any laws.

Even placement advisers at most schools recommend padding your resume to fill in the gaps.

Even placement advisers at most schools recommend padding your resume to fill in the gaps.

I've never heard that before, either from placement advisers or from employers who are looking to hire good employees and in fact I've heard just the opposite. Personally I think honesty is the best policy but perhaps my morals are getting in the way. When I choose a job I want it to be one where I can do a good job, not one where I'm waiting to get fired for incompetence. Sure, I hope to be able to do more, and by working hard I'm usually able to show an employer that I am capable of learning and growing into a better job. That better job then becomes the starting point for the next job search, if there is to be another one. With Travis' method, you rarely have anyone to give you a good recommendation in the future. Of course, if your whole goal in life is to play X-box then perhaps that's ok.

Having said all of that, Draginol hasn't said anything here about lying on your resume. He's said that a person should be honest about their abilities - neither talking them down or playing them up. He's also said he's had to fire people for silly reasons. You might have no job experience, and you might have a ton: If you don't show up to work, are consistently late, or don't do your work then no amount of skills will keep you in the job.

I was referring to Zoomba who mentioned lieing or misleading about Skills, not Draginol. For Draginol I was stating that many people are pre-disposed to leaving a position and as a result they just have a planned self destruct system operating the entire time. They usually already have something else lined up or just want a break from employment for awhile. But they seldom do it because they are lazy or dumb in my experiance.

As for your good recommendation point, those are easy. Find a friend that runs a nice sized company and you have an instant reference, or at the worst, bargin to get one from some company you do business with. Most positions i've seen are more fluff than substance and most people i've worked with in corporations are pretty status-quo and just want to roll with it and collect a check. You can meld with those types pretty easily depending on your background.

Happens all of the time, and i'm guilty of doing that quite regularly myself, but it seldom isn't a surprise and it isn't unwelcome when it occurs.

I guess that would be quite telling of your work ethic.  You obviously don't fit in with the people who are working hard trying to move up in a company.

Stardock has a very low turn over rate.  I have been with the company for 10 years and can remember every employee and the reasons for their departure if they have left.  There have been *very* few people who have ever been fired, and most people who have quit still stay in touch (even the ones who left for Microsoft).

We also have an "honesty" policy at Stardock.  If you are looking for another job- don't hide it.  Let us know so that we can find a replacement.  In return, we understand if you go to a job interview and we'll give a good parting review.

It really is a win-win situation to exaggerate or mislead on resumes and certainly isn't breaking any laws.

It is, however, a reason for instant termination if caught.  It's also a way to lose your job due to not being able to perform the required job duties.  So, it's not win-win.  It's lose-lose because the employer isn't getting the work done that is needed and the employee is setting themselves up for being fired.

But, it all comes down to work ethic.  The best employees are the ones who are honest and work hard.  If you get hired because of your current skills and then work hard and move up through learning and experience, you become a valuable asset.  If your only goal is to skate through life on lies, then..well....you're just really a loser and not values by any company.

Wow Travis, that's quite a few admissions there.  I haven't had to fire anyone in quite a long time. And as Karma mentioned, our turn-over rate is very VERY low (I can count on one hand the # of people who have voluntarily left over the 10 years).

The inspiration for this article was a number of blogs i've read where people have implied how hard it is to succeed. It's really not that hard if you just show up and do the job your'e supposed to do.  It's amazing how many people can't even be bothered to show up.

Happens all of the time, and i'm guilty of doing that quite regularly myself

It does happen frequently and I take a certain amount of joy when someone who is obviously overstating their skills and capabilities are caught.
I am in the software development business as well and when I hire developers (Java or C#) it is a three step process. First the phone screen which discusses work history, experience, goals and expectations. If that goes well then it is interview time. In the interview one of the first things that happens after the small talk is what I call whiteboard time. This involves laying out some specific business goals or design goals and asking the candidate to design, at a high level, a solution. Lots of give and take depending upon the questions the candidate has. Finally, I pull out the old laptop and have them write a software solution for three stated problems. They usually get 30-45 minutes to work on them after which we review the code and discuss their approach. Nothing fancy and certainly not difficult if the candidate is as familiar and experience as they indicated.

When I run in to those that "do it all the time" they really squirm. Some, get angry and walk out. Others claim it is beneath them to be tested in such a way. Still others simply start sweating and try to BS or stumble their way through it. Oddly enough finishing the assignments is not really necessary to get the job. Rather how they tackle the problems and work them within their limitations is just as important.

In the end, hard work, honesty and the desire to expand ones horizons is what wins the day.

It's amazing how many people can't even be bothered to show up.

Now that I just don't understand... I'm always on time, if not early... on the few occassions I've been late, I call to say so. My cubemate regularly shows up anywhere from 9 to 10:30am lately, when her boss is in by 8 and they have 8 and 9am meetings regularly. I just don't get people who don't show up. Showing up is half the battle, it's the easiest part too.

It's amazing how many people can't even be bothered to show up.

Now that I just don't understand... I'm always on time, if not early... on the few occassions I've been late, I call to say so. My cubemate regularly shows up anywhere from 9 to 10:30am lately, when her boss is in by 8 and they have 8 and 9am meetings regularly. I just don't get people who don't show up. Showing up is half the battle, it's the easiest part too.

For me, if a job lists 10 things as required skills and I have less than 7, I don't apply... or if in an interview they ask if I know Technology X and I don't, I say so.

This is so true.  Because you will be found out more often than not.  If the job mentions skills I dont have (but I think I could do them), I do not say I dont have them, I just dont say anything about those skills. But if they ask a direct question, I will answer truthfully.  I have been on both sides of a desk and it is obvious when someone says they have X, and it is at most book sense and not experience.

I'm one of those low maintenance hard working honest employees who doesn't lie on my resume nor in interviews, doesn't bother with all those political nonsenses, who tries to go out of my way to help other people where I can, strives to get the job done right rather than fast and sloppy, doesn't require any supervision, is creative in my problem solving, researches things extensively, doesn't suck up to higher types and tries to do my best for the customer (whether internal or external.)

However I've found in my 12 years of working fulltime in the IT business (I'm in my early 30s so I've been working longer than my contemporaries), which comprised of a handful of companies (one doubly counted due to an ownership flip) ranging from small to very large that inevitably companies have no real loyalty to their employees (except for the very top) and that the real benefit of being the type of person that I am is with who I work with. I get more jobs and job offers through people I've worked with who know my abilities and the type of person I am (which explains the frequent job changes.) Hard work hasn't resulted in companies rewarding me, it's resulted in previous fellow employees rewarding me making my way up to the upper middle class salary bracket. Semantics I suppose but it's an important distinction.

Based on the work experiences of people I know and what I've read online, the companies I've worked for aren't the worst out there. In fact they range from average to above average so I haven't been working for gulags or anything.

And in my experience, if you want a meaningful salary increase, you have to go elsewhere. In my current very large company the performance reviews and salary increases were a joke. I honestly did deserve one to two higher performance grades than what I got (I got average though I wouldn't have been pissed off with one grade higher, at least there's an acknowledgement that I am better than the average employees here) along with a higher salary increase than what I got (less than current inflation) compounded with the previous few years of average reviews and way less than inflation raises. It's a game of numbers with them. Everyone is average then there is a numbers quota for "needs improvement", "above average", "excellent" and "outstanding." Then salary increases are based on that, what job level you are and where you are in the salary range of that level. I can't stand the way some people go out of their way to get noticed and suck up and I refuse to play that game. So now in the end I give out the performance that an average level employee is expected, have some of my fellow average employees fall flat on their faces when I don't help them too much and ultimately take a job elsewhere soon (found again through someone that I've worked with.)

And if you're thinking about working for a very large company, beware, they're usually a bureaucratic nightmare and have lost their previous pluses of really good salaries, stability and essentially having a job for life. I'm heading back to the smaller companies.

The first company I worked for was actually after my first term at at University. Someone I knew started there and they need help and he suggested me. So I left to work. It was a startup company and there were just 2 developers, me and my friend. Took a very low salary since we were promised an increase when the company was making a profit and also a share in the profits.

The 2 of us did all the coding. Worked minimum of 80 hours a week. I would get in at 6 am and leave at 11 pm every day. And worked most weekends the same hours. Besides the programming we dealt with the clients, did tech support helped in sales. In the second year we were already in the black. Had a bunch of new contracts we signed and were going to post at least a 7 million dollar profit. Since we delt in every part of the business we knew what out expenditures were for property, salaries etc. At that point I was making $25,000. We went in to ask about an increase in salary since things were definately picking up. The onwer ends up calling a meeting and takes everyone to lunch. Starts talking about the company and how things are. Basically told us we are not doing well and don't have much money and tehy could not afford to increase our salaries. Basically lied to our face. Then decided to go back on his word on sharing in the profits.

I left the company that week and went back to school. My friend stayed for another couple of months while he looked for a job. And then he quit.

After that the response from the owner was to sue us. A few clients went back on the contracts after we left. We were the ones dealing with them and they actually hated our owner. After we left they were not comfortable with the situation and wanted nothing to do with the company. I guess our old boss decided we were responsible for them losing the clients and basically tried to scare us to come back.

The things we did really pushed the hardware we had at the time and the code was a nightmare to go through. So anbody just coming in would have a hell of a time. But it was the only way trying to get the hardware to do more then it was designed for. We really pushed the envelope but all the software was rock solid and never had a complaint about bugs.

That was my introduction into the working world and it was a wake up call. Hard work really didn't pay off. We just made the owner a multi millionaire and we got nothing out of it. He even cost us some work down the line.

Very well said "The Good Employee". You are correct in saying that companies have zero loyalty to their employees. It doesn't matter if it is a small, medium or large company. I find it funny that companies expect loyal and devoted employees that bend over backwards for them, yet in return don't provide meaningful, honest, loyal and lucrative employment in return. I think that is why the growing trend is to skate, take what you can get, and constantly be looking for something new and better.

As for your comments about large vs small companies I have found it really doesn't matter, they all generally have quirks and bad conditions. The pitfalls of working for a large one you illustrate well. However be advised, small ones are filled with their own problems. Things such as cliques, status quo, and sometimes downright cultish atmospheres. Worse, many employ "Family", those people that know they are immune from termination or worries about job security. Those types are the worst, they seldom do their job, they have bad attitudes and rude personalities, and generally without performance fears, don't give a shit about much of anything. The biggest charlatans i've seen are always these types, generally plucked off the street with little to no experiance to "Help out" a family member or relative.

Finally, CEO's of many small companies generally try to micromanage and it is a disaster, which is why they are still a "Small Company". So depending on your job, you usually have some CEO snooping around thinking he can do your job better than you can do it, or being a pest. In real companies, the CEO is doing what CEO's do, and leaving the rest to the experts in their fields.

Start your own company and do however much work you can do yourself (or with one helper) and stop growth at that point, it is the only way. You'll never get ahead slaving for the corporate greed machine and if you grow beyond yourself or one other person, then you yourself become a slave to the machine. Keep it small and simple.

"That was my introduction into the working world and it was a wake up call. Hard work really didn't pay off. We just made the owner a multi millionaire and we got nothing out of it. He even cost us some work down the line."

That's corporate America mick_k.. Happens everyday, happens to almost everyone, and happens at every corporation. Working hard at a corporation inevitably means you will just get screwed harder at some point. So skate with the status quo, use your contacts and resources gained at that company to get your own operation rolling while you wait for the day to walk out the door.

People need to learn to stop feeding the corporate greed machine, or at the least, learn to profit and gain new business while working at a corporation. Just a quick example of what I did once: One corporation I worked at I had access to free or dirt cheap performance automotive components (75% off retail), so I took advantage of that and purchased thousands a month in components (I told them they were for members of an auto enthusiast club I belong to), and Ebayed everything I purchased. I think I made a paltry 60K a year at that company, but I turned another 40K+ Ebaying items I legally obtained from them. Sure enough, when that company lost a few contracts, they axed half their workforce with no compensation. But I didn't care, I made a killing off of them on the side the entire time and banked big. A year later they closed up the plant and moved it to Mexico!

You can play the system if you know the tricks. Inevitably, you are just a useless number to any company. (but they will of course try to convince you otherwise)

Brad,

I don't know much about office positions...just trying to make the transition myself, but in the blue collar world, a boss will gladly trade a marginal but consistent employee for a fast, sloppy worker who shows up half the time. The reason? No emphasis on quality, and the fast, sloppy worker gets the job done...and the callbacks in a month due to sloppy work are just perks.

Little wonder I'm trying to leave the blue collar world, eh?

We also have an "honesty" policy at Stardock. If you are looking for another job- don't hide it. Let us know so that we can find a replacement. In return, we understand if you go to a job interview and we'll give a good parting review

That's rare. Most companies I have worked for will make your life a living hell if you tell them you're looking for another job.

I still enjoyed the work while I was there Travis. We did something that was unique and went up against some huge corporations and beat them. Also the same software was still being sold 5 years after I left and still stacked up well against what some of the big corporations were offering. It felt good knowing you were responsilbe for that.

Biggest regret is giving up the best working years and not having anything to show for it. There is no way I can put in as many hours now as I did when I worked there. Working that long and hard with no break definately put a toll on my health.

That's rare. Most companies I have worked for will make your life a living hell if you tell them you're looking for another job.

That is my experience as well.  Some even fire you outright.  Something about company loyalty and all.

I guess allot of peoples experiences are just different. I know of people who work hard, try to make inroads into something just to get pushed out by someone who doesn't know squat but knows someone and they are in. Time and time again.

Common sense, hard work, and reliability will take you far, but it still does not mean that road will not be rocky. Hard work creates opportunities (like going to and finishing college) but without an opportunity to work, find a position (remember, there is a whole lot of competition out there, someone is just NOT going to get that opportunity), and make career moves. All while taking risks (like quitting without having another job or taking 2 full time jobs),
This might give you an idea on how one persons view on life and how to be a success con be blurred by their experiences.

My experiences were awful, and so are many I have met, so I came to a conclusion of just working hard isn't enough; there has to be other factors in becoming a success that are out of your control. All you can do is be the best you can be and hope you get the opportunity to make a move. I was harassed at work, threatened, called names all while my life was put at risk. Created a situation where I have hypertension and, without Medicaid, I would have quite literally died (most likely of a stroke). Some of the social programs (yes, I know, they can be better, but without them we all would be worst) that some malign as being useless and totally wasteful actually give people a chance to make use of the hard work they should be doing in the first place. Opportunity: without it, hard work is no more than a chance in the dark with a hope that it works.



I now am working for UPS, of which actually has a real program for entry level employees that when you show hard work, punctuality, and an interest in the company, you can move up (quite quickly and easily.. if you call working hard easy ) Many people have moved up in a matter of 2 months to longer work hours and a larger pay scale. Other became part time (that's right part time) managers earning 30,000 a year with bonuses for doing well. If you walk through the parking lot you will see (at least half of the car there) brand new cars and well kept cars. At UPS, you can work hard, have common sense and be reliable and it will take you far. Many don't see it because they are breaking their backs taking out boxes and sorting them like me, but I see this (and the fact that they pay for school, have medical coverage, many discounts, 401K, and stock options).

This is what I mean by the difference between working hard and being given an opportunity. UPS was not like that before the union (and no i am actually not to fond of unions, but in this case...) got in about 7 years ago. So NOW it is like that, and the funny thing is, UPS is making more money then ever before because they actually allow workers to move up and achieve if they are willing to work hard.


Many jobs are NOT like this therefore working hard can result in a hole lot of nothing, but given an opportunity and all of a sudden, there is change afoot. At UPS, I now actually have a chance to earn more, use my degree, finish school (grad school), find out more about business and technology. WHY? Because I got the job through a welfare office... the very same one that would not exist without your taxpayer money (and mine to at one point when I was earning something).

Wow UPS must have been fixed right up after the Unions got in. I remember UPS being a horrible place to be, bad management, evil corporate overlords, the whole works. UPS guys that delivered to where I worked were always complaining about long hours, low pay, and terrible work environments. That's great to hear the Unions cleaned them up. I still feel there is a place for Unions and this is a clear example of why.

Management just blows at 90% of the companies i've ever worked at. The 10% that didn't blow were Union. Best of all, you had protections from being fired or being treated poorly, so you had job security, which made you feel like you were part of a team and not going to be "let go" at any possible moment on the whim of some corrupt manager. Given that, I wish more companies were unionized, I can think of more than a few that sure could use it.

I've never understood this mindset at all. When I've held management positions, I've let those under me know that I would never hold it against them for trying to better their situation in life.

I've actually seen people dismissed by their employers immediately after giving their 30 day notice. This cost them a month's wages and set an example for others NOT to give notice.

In Canada you have to give 2 weeks notice and you will be paid for the 2 weeks even if the company wants you out right away. At the one company we had alot of people leaving the IT department. Most of them were escorted out right away and the just started in a new job right away and got the 2 weeks pay. Unfortunately I quit after the department was a little bare from all the people that left so they made me stay and work for the 2 weeks.

Unfortunately I quit after the department was a little bare from all the people that left so they made me stay and work for the 2 weeks.

Sometimes they do what their money's worth!

At Stardock, people who give a long notice are treated very well.  People who leave Stardock sometimes eventually return or at the very least keep in contact with us in various ways. 

I'm an engineer, I wanted to have a company that is a fun place to be at.  I also recognize that other opportunities rise.  Look at each good perosn you have working with you as a long term ally and youc an benefit when they go to other companies. Never burn a bridge.

Yeah, good ole UPS! Its great there. Its allot of hard work moving 1100 boxes and hour for about 3 hours straight (there is a 10 minute break but they don't have to give us that).

You see, this is what I am trying to tell people here and what the different is between working hard/opportunity created from working hard and just plain opportunity:

The old UPS would have had me work like this with no benefits, no anything. Me showing up on time, making quota every time and so forth would have gotten no more than a pat on the back. Maybe 1 in 30 people (or less) would have been given the opportunity to move up. Period.

Now, people who are coming from welfare or just down on their luck can come into the company and if they, uh herm… work hard and do the things Frogboy listed here, they will actually move up and quite quickly I might add.


Please, don't get me wrong about hard work: it does open up some doors. The reality is that an open door does not work most of the time. The door OWNER must WELCOME THE PERSON INTO THE OPPERTUNITY. In another thread, little_whip's father took a risk (another part of the equation of making it) to find a place that he would be recognized as a valuable employee. Trust me when I say this: Many could just as well say that little_wip's father was irresponsible for leaving his wife and child and risking his personal health and life to travle across America looking for work. Taking a risk is not hard work, it is a decision. Me taking out 40,000 in school loans to get a dual MBA/MISM degree with a post Bachelorate IT degree to move from Architecture to technology was a risk, not hard work. The hard work was going to school and getting A's and B's for classes and then actually implementing what I learned on my own time through web projects like esourcemagazine and Announce Your Life.


I'm writing proposals to Goodwill/Public Assistance to help create a job network for themselves on-line using what I looked up myself and the education I received so far. That is hard work. An opportunity is someone saying to themselves, "Hmmmm... he would make a great consultant."

As I said before, I now work at UPS. Will they give me the opportunity to shine and a hard working employee or just think of me as some poor sap who 'made some stupid mistake' somewhere in his life and is just to dumb to take on real work?







If more employers were like Stardock and the current (IE not past) UPS, I wouldn't be writing about 'Hard Work does not equal you will make it' articles. I would not be saying opportunity is why people from Mexico practically kill themselves to come here to work (why not just stay where they are??? Oh yes, maybe its because of a lack of opportunity???). Maybe this is why, for generations, people from all over the world come here. Its opportunity: a chance to make it if you put down the effort to do so. Someone has to make sure opportunity exists; otherwise we are no different than USSR, Mexico, China...