Outsourcing: Who's fault is it?

Losing jobs overseas...

American college graduates are making themselves increasingly vulnerable to outsourcing. I'm not the only one who thinks this. A top Intel executive has expressed this concern too.

The problem is that American technology workers have a lethal combination upon graduation: A sense of entitlement and a lack of skills. 

The sense of entitlement is the from the belief that simply graduating with a degree in engineering, computer science, information technology, etc. somehow should entitle them to a high paying ($40k to $50k) job right away. 

The lack of skills has to do with the poor quality of college education these days in these fields. They don't keep up well. I've yet to meet a technology major college graduate who actually benefited from their formal "education".  The talented people we meet on the net are often in a scenario where we have to simply wait for them to finish college before hiring them.  Their degree made no difference in hiring, them, it simply delayed their hiring and slowed down their development on projects with us.

How much someone makes is dependent on how much "wealth" they produce.  A person making $40k per year has to be able to generate at least $120k in "wealth" to be fully secure in their position.

If I make a product that will make $1 million during its effective lifetime, I obviously can't spend more than that if I want to stay in business.  Since Americans don't really care that much about WHERE something is made, my products and services have to compete with products made by people all over the world (as well as with "freeware").  Look at all the people who bellyache'd last month about RightClick costing $14.95!

So how much we can pay someone is dependent on how much they produce. Typically, it takes quite awhile for someone to be able to produce high quality results in high enough quantity.  Many (most) Americans aren't willing to go without even if it's to their long-term benefit to sacrifice short-term.

When I founded Stardock, I was very poor for the first few years.  In its first year, the company made less than $15k. My (ahem) "salary" was obviously less than that.  It wasn't for a long while before I was able to make more than what I could have made had I simply taken an engineering job. But that short-term sacrifice led to greater long-term opportunities. Increasingly, I see fewer Americans willing to do that -- but I also see plenty of Europeans who are willing to.

The Americans we hire in the technology area typically start at far less for two reasons. One, because we're a fun place to work at for most people and two, because we have a consistent record of rewarding those who increase their skills and output with significant increases in salary. 

But where we can't find someone to do the job, we don't discriminate, we'll look to anyone we can do the job and that increasingly means Europeans who are willing to sacrifice short-term for long term gain.

If Americans want to make the big bucks right out of college without fear of being outsourced then they need to dramatically increase their skills. And the first step would be to get our education system improved so that college graduates don't require a few years of training before they can produce anything of real value.

31,132 views 39 replies
Reply #1 Top

Very insightful in many ways.  But wrong on 2 key points.

First, Europeans are not willing. That is evident by their socialist mentality.  Second, not all Americans are 'bred' with silver spoons in their mouth, tho many are.  Many of us know that we must produce more than we earn (unless in Business for ourselves) to ensure our positions.

I love the high flying salaries of Y2K.  I also knew it was illusory and would be gone.  So now I am making a decent salary commensurate with my experience and productivity.  And I do not resent that I am not making the mega bucks that we once did.

Not all americans are sliver spoon idiots. And I am sure there are a few europeans that really want to work. perhaps it is just that the good ones are in the minority.

Reply #2 Top

But wrong on 2 key points.

You need to distinguish between you disagreeing with something and something be wrong.  You stating that I am "wrong" doesn't make me "wrong". You just disagree.

Secondly, I am speaking from experience. If you have a technology company that you run that you'd like to point me to, feel free. My experiences are much the same as the Intel executive's experiences.

Thirdly, no where did I imply that every single American has a silver spoon mentality. Similarly, you are, IMO, confusing their government policies (socialist) with the attitudes of engineers who I have found are remarkably similar the world over.  And while we're at it, were it not for the election of Ronald Reagan, the US could be abut as socialist today as Europe.

Reply #3 Top
Great Article!!

My dad was an electronic engineer from the 60s until he retired in the late 90s. He has his fingerprints in everything from the old SGT Missile to Communications Satellites and even the Predator Unmanned Aerial Vehicle. His last few years in the business, he was basically a "Gray Beard" in the quality control department of the company he worked for. Being such, his major responsibility included helping newly hired engineers make the transition from book knowledge and theory, to real world application.

Watching the excitement in new engineers eyes as they take the theories in their heads and actually make things happen was always a high point for him. While he loved this part of the job, there were a couple of observations that stuck with him.

1) He had little to no respect for "Ivy League" educated engineers. Not because they weren't intelligent, but because they were so steeped in the importance of research and theory that they resented practical application. "Let them go work in think tanks, where they would rather be, would do the most good and won't take up jobs for those of us who want to make things work!"

2) No matter how well educated a person might be, it's going to take about 2 years working before they've learned enough to be worth their paychecks.

As for "outsourcing", that is nothing more than industry taking their business "elsewhere". Much like we do when we choose one dry cleaner (for example) over all the others in town. Many call industrial leaders "heartless" for costing so many jobs by moving. Do we feel "heartless" when we move from one dry cleaners to another? Do we worry about the jobs of the people working at the one we don't go to anymore? I think not.
Reply #4 Top

You need to distinguish between you disagreeing with something and something be wrong. You stating that I am "wrong" doesn't make me "wrong". You just disagree.

Conceded.  I disagree with you on the 2 points, but in my 'experience' I have found your precepts to be incorrect.

In my misconception, I found you talking about all Americans.  Having read many of your articles, I thought that strange and your denial is validation that I mis read you.  Point taken.

Finally, on the issue of Europeans, I speak from experience, not from absolute fact.  We will just have to disagree as I have not found any (yet) that seem to think hard work is necesary, and that a job is not a right.

Reply #5 Top

And while we're at it, were it not for the election of Ronald Reagan, the US could be abut as socialist today as Europe.

In that we are in total agreement.

Reply #6 Top
Intel earnings projections for the last quarter of 2004: http://money.cnn.com/2005/01/10/technology/intel/

"Analysts expect Intel to report sales of $9.41 billion for the fourth quarter, up 8 percent from a year ago and 11 percent from the third quarter." Shares of Intel shot up more than 5 percent the day of the announcement."

Companies are outsourcing, not because they "need to," but because they are reaping huge profits from doing so. Of course they are responsible to their shareholders to maximize profits, but there are long term effects to outsourcing. Every time a job leaves America, the number of people paying taxes declines, increasing the burden on the rest of us.

There are plenty of times that it makes sense and benefits all parties. But not always. On April 14th, 2004 for example, Dell returned support for several of it's business lines to the US. See http://www.c4.net/Index.cfm?Method=NewsStories.NewsStory&NewsStory_ID=296 Prior to that, support had been outsourced to India. Dell had had a public relations disaster. However, Dell still outsources support for their consumer PC's. This is despite declining scores in Dell's lever of customer satisfaction. See http://news.com.com/Growing+pains+hit+Dells+customer+service/2100-1042_3-5162141.html

A second concern that I have, is that many of the jobs going overseas are vital to our national security. As companies like Microsoft, IBM, General Electric, Dell and Intel send jobs to India, Pakistan and China, are we going to be surprised when these nations reverse engineer the technologies? Would you feel comfortable, to offer an example that I don't think is too far-fetched, knowing that the software that controls our ICBMs was written abroad?

Here's an article written by Oliver North entitled "Outsourcing National Defense," http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ollienorth/on20040813.shtml. (OMG, am I agreeing with Oliver North on something?!?) Another article from CIO Magazine about potential security risks: http://comment.cio.com/comments/14514.html

Did you know that the National Security Agency outsources some of it's data centers? Here's an article from 1999 on the topic: http://www.washingtontechnology.com/news/14_1/cover/449-1.html Vital security information flows through companies like IBM and DynCorp. And when these companies choose to send jobs abroad.....

Outsourcing is not going to go away. But there need to be rules and regulations governing it.

Reply #7 Top

That revenue is growing does not mean anything. 

Intel is competing with AMD. American CONSUMERS are the ones making individual buying decisions - largely based on prices.

I am not arguing that Outsourcing is good.  I am arguing that outsourcing is a natural result of the environment we're in.

To put it concisely:

(1) American college graduates who demand high wages out of college despite not being competitive in the global labor market.

(2) American consumers making purchases purely based on price and not where it comes from.

(3) Foreign workers who are willing to trade low start up wages to learn new skills and increase their standard of living over the long term.

Are American companies "greedy"? Sure fine. Just as greedy as the American consumer.

Reply #8 Top
I made my thoughts very clear in this Link thread. I should note that I agree 100% with Mr. Kuperman and his statements above.

Once again, its arguable as to whether their skills are really lacking as bad as you say right out of school. I've seen plenty of graduates that could program circles around some of the "Veterans" i've seen at some companies. Its a bit too complex of an issue to "Generalize" and say they are all inexperianced and require too much money.

Again, 40K-50K is a pretty low income around here based on the cost of living and labor markets (you keep saying its high-pay for some reason). I think the tech fields as a rule, pretty much suck right now. If I was to go get a degree, i'd get one in the heathcare field. A RN walks out of college and gets 50 job offers, most with hiring bonuses, and a BASE salary of 60-70K a year (as a new graduate). A RT can easily walk into a 55K a year BASE position with only a 2 year degree requirement. Keeping in mind these positions are all 30-36 hour work weeks. What do tech positions have to offer to compete with that? 50-60+ hour work weeks, crunch-times, high stress, and mediocre salaries with low job security? No thanks.

Don't blame American workers for having realistic salary requirements just because you can't afford them. Plenty of companies can afford them, and they reap the benefits of top-kit talent, high productivity of on-site programmers (overseas outsourced programming causes a huge loss in efficiency), and supporting the American economy and labor markets with reasonably well paid professionals.

In close, I think our educational system is fine, our workforce is fine, and our talent pool is quite good. Hiring our talent comes with a price, but most of that price is a requirement, because we don't live in shanty towns and drink out of the creek in this country.


PS: I'd like to remind you in your "I need a new car" blog, that you stressed that you wanted an "American Made Car".Link. I'd like to point out that this is entirely hypocritical, considering in this thread you are giving American workers the big middle finger essentually. When you outsource thousands a month in salaries overseas, and make a "Trivial" gesture by buying an American car, you can't expect people to be too thrilled with your core values and strong principles. You can't have it both ways i'm afraid.

Reply #9 Top
In respnse to your blog I have to point out some fallacies.

1. It is irrelevant the amount of education you have in a particualr field. American workers can't compete with thrid world wages. A computer programmer in the Unites States earns roughly $70-$80,000 per year. In places such as India, programmers earn roughly 1/4 of that amount, around 20,000. Amercian companies aren't looking for the best talent. Just the cheapest labor pool.

2. American programmer aren't as talented as India's. Untrue. The State of Conneticut plays host to the TopCoder competition, a computer programming competition where programmers from over 70 countries come to show their skills. Indian programmers don't even place in the top 50. They come in around 60th. You can go to www.topcoder.com and look is in the semifinals this year. Not one of them is from India. As a matter of fact, several are from the U.S. This clearly shows that These companies are clearly interested in cost rather than talent and skill
Reply #10 Top

Reply By: Draginol    Posted: Saturday, March 05, 20

Point 1, 2 qnd 3 noted and agreed upon.  Just trhe nuance I guess.

Reply #11 Top
please... I would never (especially now... its not 1998 - 2000 you know) ask for 40 or 50 a year. Once I get a job so I can work my way through school to finish IT and my MBA, I am not asking for that amount. The hights I would go is 35 a year.

My concern is getting in a well organized and well know (if possible) business where i can learn as much as I can under 3-5 years. Then what I would do after is change to a more established and well known business to add to my resume, plus have personal projects to show how good I am at doing what I do.

I would also like to add that American want cheap prices on products and services. You can't get that and pay employees 40 a year. Take a look at the auto industry.
Reply #12 Top
oh and by the way... did you join my group blog knowledge net Draginal???

I noticed that I was able to feature this article on my group blog.

Anyway, just to make sure here is the blog group:
Knowledge NET

The idea behind all of this is to, basically, create a social network group with the ability to archive user information for later retriaval. Creating your own knowledge archives for later research, work projects, blogging, school projects, team assignments, personal endevors and to show what you can do to potential employers/business partners by showing that you can do research and asnwser tough questions.

just click join and I will as you....
Reply #13 Top

1. It is irrelevant the amount of education you have in a particualr field. American workers can't compete with thrid world wages. A computer programmer in the Unites States earns roughly $70-$80,000 per year. In places such as India, programmers earn roughly 1/4 of that amount, around 20,000. Amercian companies aren't looking for the best talent. Just the cheapest labor pool.

2. American programmer aren't as talented as India's. Untrue. The State of Conneticut plays host to the TopCoder competition, a computer programming competition where programmers from over 70 countries come to show their skills. Indian programmers don't even place in the top 50. They come in around 60th. You can go to www.topcoder.com and look is in the semifinals this year. Not one of them is from India. As a matter of fact, several are from the U.S. This clearly shows that These companies are clearly interested in cost rather than talent and skill

I don't consider UK, Germany, Belgium, Poland, or Italy to be "third world" countries.

Secondly, for the reading comprehension impaired, no where did I claim that American developers are less good than developers elsewhere.  What I have said is that American college graduates, on average, are not good enough to justify $40k starting salaries in my opinion.

And despite what Kobrano may believe, I have no problem finding top notch developers -- reality check, we dominate our market completely. And that's not from using "cheap labor". It's from picking the best and brightest to work with.

As for being "hypocritical" about preferring American cars, sigh, quite the opposite.  Rather, I recognize the reality that it is consumers that determine wages - not employers.  And so I prefer to do my part to try to buy American made goods to keep jobs here. 

Reply #14 Top

I would also like to add that American want cheap prices on products and services. You can't get that and pay employees 40 a year. Take a look at the auto industry.

If the worker can produce a great deal of quality results in a short amount of time, then yes, he is worth $40k. Heck, depending on the market, a skilled developer is worth 3X or 4X that amount. 

My point, which seems to get lost between Kobrano's insistence on over-generalize the argument is that American college students, upon graduation, do not have the skills to justify $40k to $50k salaries in industries that focus heavily on emerging technologies. And as a result, the future technology markets may be dominated by foreign countries.  That is what the Intel executive was getting at and I totally concur.

Reply #15 Top
Draginol said: "My point, which seems to get lost between Kobrano's insistence on over-generalize the argument is that American college students, upon graduation, do not have the skills to justify $40k to $50k salaries in industries that focus heavily on emerging technologies. And as a result, the future technology markets may be dominated by foreign countries. That is what the Intel executive was getting at and I totally concur."

Thanks for resummarizing. I agree, you have a valid point.

Draginol also said "I am not arguing that Outsourcing is good. I am arguing that outsourcing is a natural result of the environment we're in." To which I agree perhaps 90%. Maybe 95%.

I think that we might quibble about the word "natural" in the above sentence. My point, such as it was, is that their are laws and regulations governing employment. Changing those laws, as I am a proponent of doing for reasons stated above, changes the environment. If companies risked losing significent Federal contracts, they would select their employees based on different criteria. Again, perhaps more of a quibble than a disagreement.

Reply #16 Top

Many (most) Americans aren't willing to go without even if it's to their long-term benefit to sacrifice short-term.

nor are many 'american' businesses as is evidenced by their rush to outsource.  as larry points out, considerations of security and homeland economics are being compromised by focusing on short-term profits.

As companies like Microsoft, IBM, General Electric, Dell and Intel send jobs to India, Pakistan and China, are we going to be surprised when these nations reverse engineer the technologies? Would you feel comfortable, to offer an example that I don't think is too far-fetched, knowing that the software that controls our ICBMs was written abroad?

of even more personal and immediate concern to me is what is being done to protect my financial and medical data (like information necessary to process tax returns, credit card transactions, diagnostic results, etc) when its transmitted into the hands of third world workers?  while the majority may be good n faithful servants...

Every time a job leaves America, the number of people paying taxes declines, increasing the burden on the rest of us.


and that's just only one of the easily predictable economic consequences.  in the very short span of 60 years, japan's global reputation for making cheap junk was surplanted by its reputation for making inexpensive excellence. unfortunately for japan,  korea and taiwan did that as well for less--as china and india are doing now. 

if those american workers whose jobs have moved on held stock in the entities by whom they were formerly employed, it could be reasonably argued that outsourcing might benefit our country rather than just the subset of those whose businesses are headquartered here.  

If companies risked losing significent Federal contracts, they would select their employees based on different criteria.


or at least more carefully consider the short-term sacrifice vs long-term benefits ratio recommended to newly graduated job-seekers.

Reply #17 Top
I think part of the problem is that people have benchmarked their expectations on the job market of the dot-com/Y2K bubble.

Reply #18 Top
Are American companies "greedy"? Sure fine. Just as greedy as the American consumer.

And let's not forget who owns these companies - it's you and me, not some anonymous boogey-man

Every time you spend a dollar, you cast a vote!
Reply #19 Top
Wow, the DNC should read this thread. Apparently decent paying jobs are not as rare as they would have us believe! No wonder Kerry couldn't convince enough American voters how awful things are!!!! ;~D
Reply #20 Top
And while we're at it, were it not for the election of Ronald Reagan, the US could be abut as socialist today as Europe.


from 1945 until 1980 what percentage of families with one or more employed wage earner received assistance in the form of foodstamps, medicare and housing subsidies?

from 1988 until now has that changed? how significantly?
Reply #21 Top

To me it's straight forward:

(1) Products and services compete for the buying dollars of consumers.

(2) Those consumers rarely, if ever, make an issue of where those products and servers were created.

(3) Price is a major factor in someone's buying decision.

Therefore:

I can either: (a) Just hire American developers off the college assembly line and pay them $40k to $50k right off the bat and be uncompetitive in th emarket thus eventually going out of business or (b) Hire the best and brightest developers from around the entire world who may or may not cost as much as that American college grad.

Reply #22 Top
The key to this really is Americans when they come out of college just aren't worth a whole heck of a lot. As a recent college Grad (Dec '03) I fully agree with that. My degree wasn't worth the paper it was printed on really. I can say "Yeah, I spent 4 years at Penn State and got this note saying I was there" but I can't say that I learned anything in terms of actual job skills. The fact that I have a job at all (and one that pays in that 40-50 range Brad points out) is a miracle unto itself. I had a hell of a time getting job offers period, regardless of starting salary.

My degree didn't teach me how to code, how to work with networks, run systems. Hell, most of the people I graduated with in my IT program don't even know how to use basic DOS commands. What (very) little I do know, I learned myself through part-time jobs or playing around on my own at home.

If I were to guess my real job value, at this stage of the game I'd estimate it around 35-40k depending on where I had to live. That's much lower than were I am at now. I was just very lucky in this case. I can't expect to be so lucky when I move on to my next job.

It's a tough spot to be in right now for college students. When this batch entered college, the world was great, the salaries were high and jobs were plentiful... hell, they didn't even need to know anything. Now salaries are more realistic, jobs in the field are getting scarce and "entry level" jobs want 5+ years experience.
Reply #23 Top
The key to this really is Americans when they come out of college just aren't worth a whole heck of a lot.


Part of the problem is, we are expecting Universities to be Job Training and Placement centers. Something that they were never meant to be.

Reply #24 Top
Ah, one of my favorite subjects. I have been in the software development business for 20+ years. Starting as a developer in a software company writing BASIC, assembler and C code on a variety of platforms from CP/M, TRS-DOS, Applie, CoCo's and the new fangled IBM PC. You might say I was writing software before it was cool and paid a lot. I am sure there are older but I certainly was there from the birth of the micro-computer on up when my fellow graduates went off to program in Cobol I was making the mistake of programmiug toys.
Anyway, I digress. I agree with what Brad is saying. The mid to late nineties and the .COM growth really messed it up. Before the .COM bust I remember interviewing consultants (who would ever work for 1 company!?) fresh out of school demanding 80,90, 100+ an hour for C++ development with only 1 or 2 years of experience. They were rock and roll stars in their own mind. Not that they were that good, just that the law of supply and demand was running the show. The salaries and perks were rediculous. Now, I would be lying if I did not say I made hay when the sun was shining also. The difference was that I new it was a bubble and did not adjust my lifestyle to match. There were many a 20 something who expressed to me that they felt this was the future and there was no way it would change. Level out maybe....
The it all came crashing down. Jobs were lost and when replaced the income was much lower. Now instead of billing at $100 an hour (208k a year) they were finding jobs at the mid $50's or even lower. Houses and cars had to be sold. One developer (very good C++ guy I might add) that boasted about his 5000+ sq foot house two doors down from Troy Aikman has since settled into a modest 2500 sq foot house.
There for a couple of years salaries and rates were not too far out of line to what I thought they should be. Of course they are trending upwards now, but I do not think they will reach the level of "out of whack" that it was before.
Offshoring, in my point of view, is a direct result of the heady 90's. I tell the current grads I meet when they come asking for the moon that they are pricing themselves out of a job, especially when they are Java/.NET developers working in a corporate environment. This trend is not limited to tech workers. A good friend of mine who is a research scientist for Motorola recently told me that he is on a team that is in the process of patenting a new invention. He says that an Indian law firm is doing all the patent work and then when it is complete it will be sent back to a US patent lawyer for sign off. I have heard similar stories in the health care field but no first hand knowledge.
An argument can be made that this is a good thing for the country as it allows technology to move forward here while the current tech is handled by seemingly "less-talented" people. I am not convinced of this argument but there it is.
Reply #25 Top

The key to this really is Americans when they come out of college just aren't worth a whole heck of a lot. As a recent college Grad (Dec '03) I fully agree with that. My degree wasn't worth the paper it was printed on really. I

I disagree with you, but probably not for the reason you state.  I know in the IT field, things just change too fast for you to learn Job skills while in College.  What you do learn is how to learn, and you also demonstrate to future employers that you have the will and dedication to learn.  Many employers dont care what you get your degree in, just in the fact you have one.