"We have left you alone. In fact, we never bothered you at all, keeping all comments to Juni's site."

The comments shouldn't even have been there but fair enough. His site is gone, so I no longer have a business interest in this situation at all.

Good luck and I hope you find an amicable solution to your problems.

I defended them, Juni, because as you know, PPX3k and PPXSkins was losely interchanged on many comments that dealt with this situation but if that is no longer the case....good luck.

Friends, so much bickering over so little pixels!!
When I set out to create my UIs, I was thinking about what if Juni came up with a PPX UI based on his dashboard skins...and trying to imagine what it would look like-making it look as official and smooth as possible. That's it!

Hmm, and that Control panel certainly was an original idea. Where did you get the idea for the buttons as well? Uncannily like Juni.

Ripping = Copying or modifying another artists work and redistributing without permission.

All you had to do was ask!

Hmm so far you've gotten to ChromePDA, and Control pad, and Control pad II. Any other skins you'd care to borrow heavily from and repost in your name lonnie? >

Guys, there is no need to deal with this on this messageboard. Email would be much better, and it wouldnt make you guys look so bad.

I hereby declare this thread closed. (mind you, I cant actually close it, but you shouldnt do this here)
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hahaha, good luck locking it. see ya tomorrow

Thanks, we didn't ask for these people to follow us here.

its a public message board man, if you dont want us here, take your issues elsewhere.

she was refering to lonnie and michael... not those of us who were here before this

Ah.

#28 by Citizen Lonnie the Skinner - 3/10/2004 4:27:20 PM Friends, so much bickering over so little pixels!! When I set out to create my UIs, I was thinking about what if Juni came up with a PPX UI based on his dashboard skins...and trying to imagine what it would look like-making it look as official and smooth as possible. That's it!

So....the idea was to make a 'juni - styled' skin......when the only way to do that would be to 'borrow' from juni's designs/images.

In my book that makes it 'porting'....eg my Tiggz' GT2 port to WinAMP of his WB skin.

Piss-easy to do, but unethical to distribute without permission because it would be in violation of his [Tiggz] artist's copyright, which is inherent with all works 'published' [publicly distributed].

Sure, if juni uses images originating from the OS creator that may be one 'issue', but last time I checked, two wrongs do not make a right.  It is assumed that juni brought some originality/creativity and therefore ownership rights to the skin creation, and it is those/that specifically that still must be protected.

Copyright issues often have grey areas, but by Lonnie the Skinner's own admission he has used juni's work or ideas....and that is called ripping.

For a skinning or graphic site to be universally accepted/respected with the online community it must have an acceptable standard of respect and consideration for artists' rights.  Failure to do so means a short history/future for the site as people are less than impressed....

Yeah guys, I was referring to our newest members Lonnie and Michael.

And Jafo the Wise has spoken.... I hope Juni didn't swamp you with too much late night reading material. At least it's entertaining. He's sleeping ATM, but he'll be joining us when he wakes up. Thank you for all your support.

Or is it Wize? I was never good at spelling.

Thanks guys, maybe this whole ordeal will never be solved, but it's nice to be back in a crowd that understands.

So....the idea was to make a 'juni - styled' skin......when the only way to do that would be to 'borrow' from juni's designs/images.

Yes. Because it was FAN ART of juni's work I 'borrowed' from juni. What would be the point of trying to pay homage to him if it looked nothing like it. Well, I could just paste his head on a dog..but then that wouldn't be right..but you'd get the point! BUT what stands for argument here is that 'I' went to the bloody effort of "creating" each and every image in MY UIs. There is not one image stolen from Juni's work, I only went and found his sources where he stole from first.

Sure, if juni uses images originating from the OS creator that may be one 'issue', but last time I checked, two wrongs do not make a right.

So you turn a blind eye when one person does it, but when another finds the exact same sources..ooooo..that's naughty. Come on, we're both in the wrong and you know it.

For a skinning or graphic site to be universally accepted/respected with the online community it must have an acceptable standard of respect and consideration for artists' rights.

Last time I checked, the people that create the images for MSN, Microsoft, whatever OS, etc.. are still artists, even if they're saddle with the weight of corporation. So if Juni does "fan art" of what he'd like to see if Microsoft did a myPDA skin, then he is just as wrong as when I do a UI containing similar images (all captured, modified and stolen, JUST like juni). What I'm REALLY getting at, is that it takes no creativity nor inspiration to rip off your icons, backgrounds, whatever from Microsoft or anything else on the net, clipart, etc. And if you therefore agree to that, then obviously, the creativity is in the layout of the skin. Correct?

So..therefore, my mypad layout (which differs from Juni's) is a creatively different idea from his. Right?

It's funny when you read an old post such as this:
https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=159871&u=1 . I really do wonder why we can't get away from this whole anality.

It's just that - I dunno - are we getting perhaps a bit too anal with this whole permission thing?

I don't want to attract flames, I'm just - ya know - thinking aloud. Does anyone long for the old days when ports of skins were ok and all good?

Yes, I was speaking of OS ports. OS ports made by skinners with something valid to add. And yes, many skinners will disagree with me on that. I happen to think that if it's a good OS port, then it's acceptable. An honor code among skinners to make something good.

What you did was different Lonnie. Yes, like Juni you took the XP look. But what about the buttons and control pad? That was Juni's original work. How did you change it? How did you add anything better? And did you ask for his permission before putting your name on it and uploading it? Copying someone's work and then claiming it as your own isn't being a very good fan.

But what about the buttons and control pad? That was Juni's original work. How did you change it?

I'll simply say, I didn't copy the control pad, and buttons. I can show you the photoshop file with the filters added to the PLAIN circles and squares to make em look the way they do. But I doubt that would even convince you.

Yes, what does a Photoshop file prove... now I'm no expert skinner, but even I could do that. ... but a briefly awake Juni just laughed out loud at your proof...

Look, I guess you don't know who Jafo is, and you don't care about copyright infringements or the ethics of it all. You don't really seem to care that you ripped off a fellow skinner. So why are you here?

and you don't care about copyright infringements or the ethics of it all.

But I do care about copyright infringments, and I'm only looking for all the permission that Juni got to grab the images from Microsoft, or even rip off the basic buttons, like calendar, and tasks, etc, with the 12X12 versions of them.. Funny, they look strangely like the buttons on my PPC.

So if you (or he..cause goodness knows he can't speak for himself!) could provide those emails, phone messages, whatever, that would be fantastic! I just want to know who I should contact!

Yes, he's sleeping and I'm up late wasting my time on this arguement. I'm sorry that you don't have someone in your life that you know well enough to know what they're going to say in a given situation.

Not everyone is in your timezone.

ps - no, they're not nearly as familiar to Microsoft's images are as your images are to Juni's. But if you have all the answers, why are you here?

I am here because I like being around people that do the same thing as me.

ps - no, they're not nearly as familiar to Microsoft's images

Not nearly? So there is some familiarity, therefore he's just as in the wrong as I am. (As I've said for the second or third time now..it's too bad I have to repeat myself, but I guess dumb people find love too)

I guess dumb people

  pot.....kettle.....

You freely admit deriving your skins from that of another skinner without consent.....perhaps you both use MS images, but only one of you is deriving that use from that of another's.

The use of Microsoft images can be argued in US law as 'fair use' [but not in Australia, actually] which makes it OK for both of you, but this whole 'fan-art' homage to juni's work stinks....particularly if juni does not wish to be feted this way....especially when not credited.

perhaps you both use MS images, but only one of you is deriving that use from that of another's.

They weren't? Clearly by MSN's page, the clock is used as a calendar item...and ooooo...juni had the creativity to use that for tasks. Wow. Stand back! So this is my problem. If Juni finds a graphic on the web, no one else in the wide wide world can use that in the same manner? I mean obviously he got the flag/start button from somewhere..

A Copy, is a copy, is a copy.

Your copy is of his.

That is the issue.

what I see is Juni has taken the idea of MSN images and created original ones that are not pixel by pixel copies. On the other hand if I take Luni's and simply flip them horizontily in any photo program I don't need to be a copy right cop or a graphic artist to see that Luni has manipulated Juni's work. And to use a degrading name like Luni (paying homage to your skinning hero? yeah right that name is obviously down right insulting) Your so called original work after they pulled the first set of skins is simply manipulation. I agree with Jafo that ppxskins by their actions or lack there of will slowly fade away... this situation will also harm the program ppx (which I might add appeared to be promising at first look) by scaring off potential skinners. I or any other skinner that is aware of how a respected skinner was treated will never take part in the ppx community. The precident has been set. Michael good luck and I would try to disasociate myself from the skin site you deny having anything to do with. Remove the interlinking and promote healthy creativity
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