IPlural,

I would argue that the rabbinical translation would be more accurate, as per the following:

Indeed, "kill" in English is an all-encompassing verb that covers the taking of life in all forms and for all classes of victims. That kind of generalization is expressed in Hebrew through the verb "harag." However, the verb that appears in the Torah's prohibition is a completely different one, " ratsah" which, it would seem, should be rendered "murder." This root refers only to criminal acts of killing

The translation of the 6th commandment as 'Thou shalt not kill' is more than likely a result of the translation chain from hebrew to greek to latin to english. Additionally, no matter how diligent or honest a translator is, their translation will be steeped in the context of their own mindset (Traduttore, traditore; the translator is the traitor).

Aleatoric has a point. Translation is done by interpreting a text and retelling what you think it said or means. Trouble strikes when the translations start to get a life of their own.

So your English bible is really an interpretation of several interpretations of primarily Jewish sources (which get some of their stuff elsewhere, but that's another story).

amazing...

With all the translations and so forth it still comes down to reading comprehension?

Makes you wonder how so many people can be 'sure' its ok to do something or not because God said so.

Very cool thread.

Why is it that the idea of God only came about when Man came about? Isn't this proof enough that we created him? Why didn't God leave any signs that he was here millions of years ago? He was supposedly building this planet for 6 days or 5 days, and then created us? Well how long did it take him to make the rest of the universe? We are but a speck floating in darkness.

'God' has always been, just as the universe is endless. Infinity is incomprehensible to man.
Religion is a man made device used to control other men. It was the tool of the first shaman, medicine man, whatever you want to call him. Long before there were written texts of any kind.

Aleatoric, interesting the difference you make between "kill" and "murder". But, I ask you, what IS the difference between "killing" and "murdering"?
According to the Mariam-Webster it goes as follow:
Kill: to deprive one of life.
Murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.

So it seems that the difference between those two word lies in the "law". "Murder" is a crime, it's unlawfull. While "Kill" is more general. In other words, to "murder" is to kill under conditions forbidden by law.  But when we talk about God's words, what IS the law? God does not go by man's laws. So what ARE God's laws about murder? Especially when put in context, where God gave his Ten Commendments, those WERE the law. The very base of what was to be Jewish Law. How then could God be refering to a concept that requires a prior legal definition? Catch 22?

Paxx,

It does sort of come down to a circular argument, doesn't it?

I certainly think some of it comes down to the fact that the writers of the bible already had some history to refer to, in terms of the way things are worded, both in terms of other codes, such as Hammurabi, and in terms of both oral and tribal tradition. As an interesting point, there is some anthropological evidence that (at the tribal level) murder was considered to be the killing of someone in your own tribe, whereas killing outside your tribe was not much different (in their concept) of killing an animal. In other words, it was only a violation if the victim was part of your tribe. That apparently included all of the restrictions laid out in the body of tribal law, which was probably much of the source of the ten commandments (among others).

As the tribes commingled, the body of law was stretched to include these others and ultimately gained acceptance as a set of rules that would include humanity as a whole. To some degree, it was Jesus Christ who made a case for the idea that the law applied to all, whether jew, or gentile, or philistine, etc.

At some point, there comes the idea that there must be some ultimate authority to which we can refer, that is the one true source of our ethical code. To many, this is God. Thing is, if you don't believe, God isn't much of an authority. Although I do believe, I also contend that the primary source of the authority of our ethical codes and laws is the concept of identification and self-interest. In the same manner that we desire to not be harmed, killed or robbed (among other things), and given that we have an identification with others, in that we can reasonably state that, by and large, all humans share the same basic desire for freedom from harm, it is a logical extension of that characteristic to use it as the basis for our social contract with each other.

Why is it that the idea of God only came about when Man came about?

Not sure about that one
Who would have had the idea BEFORE man came about?

I saw a few common arguments, such as the lack of evidence supporting the "Biblical" history and the one about "interpretation vs. translation". The body of supporting evidence
is enormous. But a few simple observations. One book, written over the course of millenia, by many different authors, still maintaining a common theme and surviving intact for some 2,000 years, despite attempts to eradicate it from the face of the earth, and containing foreknowledge of future events and even scientific knowledge that was not known to the men of its time.

Anyway, "the big picture", or topic of this thread wasnt about the bible, but evolution vs creation. I pose this question... Can a watch evolve? A car? A device containing hundreds or even thousands of moving parts coming together by chance. Take apart a watch and toss the pieces into a bucket and shake it around for as long as you like, shake it forever if you can. Those pieces will never fall into place to form a working timepiece. How much larger and more intricate our universe is. Our own bodies. We are amazingly designed. Did you ever stop to think about your own eyes, what goes into the "simple" act of sight and recognition. Your hands. Your senses. Every design requires a designer. A skinner should realize that better than anyone

What an astounding string of coincidences that allow the matter in an "empty" universe to explode, and the force of this "bang" to form planets and stars. Think of the incredible engines that are stars. And for one planet to form and come to rest at just the right distance from one such perfectly balanced star, not too hot, not too cold. Spinning at just the right speed. The atmosphere and all the life within it, sprang out of chance circumstance and "evolved" the delicate cycles that exist and perpetuate the cosmos. Our world and the life within it is , our universe is, a perpetual motion machine. The engineer who designed it knew his craft. From the tiniest single celled organisms to the massive stars burning all around us.

Man , I hope I didnt sound grandiose. But thats my "take" on the subject.

cya

One book, written over the course of millenia, by many different authors, still maintaining a common theme and surviving intact for some 2,000 years, despite attempts to eradicate it from the face of the earth, and containing foreknowledge of future events and even scientific knowledge that was not known to the men of its time.

Yes, but then you have to explain the Dead Sea scrolls, which were written around the same time period as the New Testament. They tell a slightly different story of Jesus.

I do agree that no way this is all an accident....... I just can't even conceive of that. That this entire universe, and all that's in it, all the tenacity of life, all this simply happened by random chance.......... now that would be a miracle in my mind.

.......... and I don't think the question is WHO is God, but rather, WHAT is God......... 




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Don't get me started on the mormons and "adding on to the bible"...

There are some things in this world man will "never" be able to explain and thank God for that or it would be a boring world w/o mistery don't you think?

Go to a good Observatory at night alone if possible just once and really look at the stars in space and specially the moon, go to the beach and look at the ocean and the things in it and just be quiet and think about things, do you seriously think we and the earth we live on was all by accident???

My biggest thing I've often wondered in the past was if God is God and powerful why did he create imperfect ppl that messed up over an apple back in the begining? Why did he have the apples next to where they could even reach them? Why give us temptation and choices over them?
but then why would God create little puppets, dolls or robots?

"A real living God" would want "real living people" capable of their own minds not being controlled as puppets on a string by him or the company he created to love would be boring to him and the love we returned would mean nothing to him was the best answer I could come up w/ on that...

I'm not sure God is Perfect but I think his "Love" is perfect causing his only flaw which keeps him from distroying us even from the first time we messed up.
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The Dead Sea scrolls have nothing to do you the Mormon..........  They were no Mormon living in the Middle East during the life time of Jesus. 

No, no Mormons, but they did have cars even way back then. As Doreen points, Adam and Eve "messed up" , so "God drove them from the garden in his Fury"

wise guys everywhere... hehe

actually the one I like the bestest is that we have fossils to test our faith? (I dunno me is tired it's somewhere in this thread and I ain't looking for it)

They tell a slightly different story of Jesus.

Koa, that was the sentence that made me think of mormons.

I am not a mormon. Have no wish to participate in the occult.

Kona other Religions that are different from yours are not occults they are merely other humans like you searching for the answer... nothing more nothing less

/me goes searching for my bed early tonight.

OK I believe different but do not wish to futher argue so I will drop it.

nothing
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http://www.godlovesgays.com/bibcont.htm

@ Jafo - he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy

John 8:44

boring? Why it isn't as if we knew everything we would stop killing each other wholesale for various ignorant reasons..



But if it was known, it might force people to accept their actions as their own and not have something else to blame, or it might cause them to stop in fear of pissing something larger than life or death off.

I suggest some people read about the apocryphal books. There are a number of books from the old and the new testament that the Counsil rejected. For example, the New Testament as we know it, only contains 4 books, the 4 evangelists. But in reality, many more were found, I think it's about 12 or so. But when deciding upon the final version of was to be the Bible, the Counsil made the decision to select only those 4 because the other books sometimes contained information that didn't comply with what the Church wanted people to believe in. Those books exist. Some of them are still in the archives of the Vatican, other have been destroyed long ago.  I don't want to start an argument about the content of the apocryphal books and what they were saying. My point here is that Ingui's arguement that "One book, written over the course of millenia, by many different authors, still maintaining a common theme and surviving intact for some 2,000 years" is not quite true, because those 4 books were SELECTED because of their similar message and because that message was the one the Church wanted.

But for the curious minds out there, do a little research, dig up a little bit, and you might find that the Bible could have been quite different.

Oh and one more thing. To people that think that the World is so perefct, so it MUST have been made by a higher being. This reminds me of a part in Voltaire's "Candide" where there is this guy, a "metaphysicist" (what they called then a philosopher), who is just so amased that everything is so perfect. He gives as an example how just amasing it is that glasses fit just perfect on your face. Had we had no nose to hold the glasses on, they would have been impossible to wear!!  Very funny. But anyway, back on topic. The World we live in may be complex, but it certainly isn't perfect. We find it so because that's what we're used to. And yes, it is complex, because it's taken billions of years of shaping.

Take billions of years of accidents. The bad accidents disapear, the good accidents live on and proceates. BILLIONS of years. Little things here and there. And yes, eventually to come up to somehing that is quite complex and quite well adapted for survival in our environment.

studying DNA from older civilizations seems to strongly indicate that the "genetic load" ( totality and frequency of genetic defects ) in the human race has increased dramatically and steadily with time. we're not evolving, we're devolving with each century. the average athenian in ancient greece was more intelligent than the average citizen living in any country on the planet today. ( how's that for a flagrant assertion that i cannot prove, and you cannot disprove).