Frogboy Frogboy

Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?

Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?

There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.

A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked.

A gang considers gentle and tolerant behavior between members of the gang but treatment of outsiders can be very nasty, even violent.

The recent melodrama that we saw on the message boards is something that at first looks like just another flamewar.  But looking back on it, what we really have is a confusion between what is a community and what is a gang.

For example, in this recent incident, 3 users, Lady Akasha, Apocalypse67 (to a far lesser extent), and Green Armani, were disgruntled by things they saw on the message boards. Specific behaviors that they considered "unfriendly". But how do you define unfriendly behavior? Well, it seems having looked over their posts, unfriendly behavior is any behavior that disagrees with their points of view.

For instance, in one thread which was yet another complaint about the wallpaper section that, like so many, quickly had one side making baseless accusations against the moderators which eventually got me involved. I said essnetially "I don't care about the wallpaper section. I could care less if any more wallpapers were uploaded." The point of my message was that wallpaper authors do not hold a special leverage. The way we run the wallpaper section is "as-is". Polite discussions on changes are welcomed but threats and peole taking their walls and going are not going to work.

Wallpapers on WinCustomize get more downloads than wallpapers on any other site on the Internet. So we feel justified in the way we run the wallpaper section. I.e. we must be doing something right.

But the response to this was anger and 2 people taking their walls and going because of feeling "insulted". WC was clearly not a "friendly" place.  We don't show "respect" to people here.

All of these words turn out to be code-words for "agreeing with me unconditionally".

All 3 users went to deviantART and proceeded to not just attack WinCustomize in their journals but personally attack the users here and myself specifically with name-calling and the what-not. 

You can see this here:
http://greenarmani.deviantart.com
http://lady-akasha.deviantart.com
http://apocalypse67.deviantart.com

In the Devious comments you can see Lady Akasha and Green Armani saying all kinds of vile things. And yet at the same time, are "disgusted" at the people here and myself in particular. consider that for a moment. I don't recall anyone treating them anywhere nearly as nastily as they are posting over at dA about other people.

In one good example, Green Armani had a problem logging on for some reason. No one had done anything to him. It happens sometimes (not often but it's happened to me too). His first thought was that we had deleted his account for having a differing point of view. He went as far as to imply that the admins of this site are similar to the Nazis and others who would silence dissenters. Except that we had done no such thing. When he managed to log on, several minutes later, no formal apology. Only complaints that he no longer had elite access (which you'll find in every case that these people feel they are entitled to).

But in all of this, the charge is that there is no community here. They're wrong. What we don't encourage here are gangs.  Instead, we value honesty, integrity, objectivity, trust, and fairness. These are the cornerstones of a healthy community. But it's not a gang.

Every once in awhile a community site will find gangs form in their midsts. That is, in my opinion, what we just witnessed.  Such gangs try to impose their views on others and consider any resistance as something to be crushed. the ultimtate code of the gang is that members of the gang are treated with kindness and those outside the gang are treated with utter ruthlessness.

And from reading their posts both here and elsewhere, the ruthlessness and meaness of their personalities has really shown that they don't understand the difference between a community and a gang.

33,421 views 135 replies
Reply #26 Top
25 by Jafo - 7/28/2003 7:49:26 PM Et tu, Brute?


No jafo this wasn’t meant as an act of treachery, I am indeed a friend and ally.
Reply #27 Top
#24 by Messy Buu - 7/28/2003 7:47:28 PM
I'm not saying that Frogboy didn't have the right to mention them by name, but it does have potential to add fuel to the fire

MessBuu,

Frogboy did nothing wrong in showing evidence that was contrary to the opinion’s of aforementioned disgruntled artists…Especially since they were the very ones thumping their chests about DeviantArt and there departure to a supposedly “better” place so they MUST have expected that SOMEONE was going to catch wind of what they were saying about WC and Frogboy too.

Oh but because we say this will we be deemed sucks ups or the latest brown nosers? Whatever

Did we see Frogboy result to name calling tactics? Nope. Did we see Frogboy post HIS website at DeviantART? No, he’s a dang MEMBER there too!

His point was right on the money and frankly GANG-tactics won’t EVER help ANY community for how can it GROW if it’s always US and THEM?

If you read between the lines…you’d almost conclusively assume/think they were the only good artists on WC and that’s a punch in the eye to many good artists who ARE here on this site still.

If the worst Frogboy can say is “I don’t care about the wallpaper section” (sorry that is not a verbatim quote)…well, so what? Is he the only one here who can’t have his own opinion? And has the wallpaper section bit the dust despite the fact he’s felt that way for a LONG time? No.

Now everyone chill and have some ice-cream…it’s on us!
Reply #28 Top
e-bros...it's winter here in Oz...Ice-cream ain't too thrillin' when it's cold....now if you'd said 'mulled wine'.....
Reply #29 Top
#28 by Jafo - 7/28/2003 8:46:36 PM
e-bros...it's winter here in Oz...Ice-cream ain't too thrillin' when it's cold....now if you'd said 'mulled wine'....

Mulled wine with a cinnamon stick garnish it is
Reply #30 Top
There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked.


I couldn't agree more. Too many times I have seen where someone posts a question about why things are the way they are and some people just pile on with the rude comments and accusations and then more people pile on and from there the real issue is lost in the fray. I had posed the question "Is this the way it is supposed to be?" MadIce responded and said that was pretty much it. Maybe that's true. I've only been here for a short while and never really got on messageboards before except for small tight knit art communities. Those were very different. The closest similarity I've seen is some of the Yahoo messsage boards where people are really vile to others. But they are not involved in a common endeavor. Those boards are usually about politics or religion or some other volatile issue.
But I digress.
I wonder how much of the real issue was lost and whether there could have resolution before the fast slide into anarchy.
I realize there is a wide variety of ages here and after raising 3 kids (still working on the youngest) I know young people are quick to jump on the bandwagon, as it were, and that probably contributes to the piling on. Young people (and sometimes old alike) want to be noticed and being 'cute' or 'witty aka rude' seems to be the favored modus operandi.
Anyway ... my hopes ... WC becomes a little more civil. To me, a family place is not just about not cursing or using foul language, but also about behaviour, tolerance, and patience.
Reply #31 Top
My name keeps popping up on these threads, and some how I just feel compel to respond.
Brad, as well elaborated as this thread is, I think the title stretches a little beyond reality. I don’t think the issues in debate or the way they have been discussed are motives to brand us or any group of people for that matter, as a ‘GANG’. I don’t think it would be fair that someone will come here and call everyone here a ‘gang’ just because a common interest is shared. Just the way I don’t think it would be fair that anyone would come here and call the group of moderators a ‘gang’ just because they share a task and they uphold a job that others might find unfair to their submitted work.
I don’t know about anyone else, people have different opinions and express them selves in their own unique way, but I have never touch any issue in regards to the community. I KNOW what a community is. I also have not display any type of ‘disgruntle’ because people don’t share my point of view. I do have indeed agreed with some of the issues regarding the recent change of policy on wall moderation. And I have indeed agree with the fact that some [not all] members of staff have acted very rude and unprofessional when confronted or dealing with certain issues. I mean, you would think that they would set up an example since they are the ones in a way assigned to help conduct the site. But maybe it’s just me that sees these things.
In all the time I have been here in WC, I have yet to display any type of disorder behavior. I have commented on the message board when there is really something I can collaborate. I have abided by the rules and policy of the site.
Also, there is not one moderator here that can say that I have bashed them for any reason, nor they have ever received any email from me in discontent for not accepting any of my designs. The day that one of my designs was not accepted, I went to Geocities and created a personal page to upload the work that didn’t pass moderation here.
I left this site for the things that I mentioned and a few others that I rather keep to my self. But I left and removed my work because I so choused, and I don’t owe any explanation for my actions. If you were to for whatever reasons take your work and move it someplace else, you don’t have to give anyone any kind of explanation. But I removed my designs from here and all of the sudden I’m childish, I’m running away from the problems or I’m a gang member.
On one of the posts you stated that I think of WC a servant of mine and that this site serves as a slave. When in fact I never mentioned anything like that. I consider that to be a false accusation, and after I cleared that out no one apologize to me. But if I would be the one making that accusation, most likely I would be exile or removed. So I think the double standard issue applies to everyone involved. Including you Brad.
And while is true that I wont get the amount of downloads in any other site as I did here at WC, hell, I probably wont get 10 downloads a week, but I don’t make designs to collect downloads. I get no type of monetary compensation for downloads. I share my designs simply because I love to make them and I like people to enjoy them. So 10 downloads a week and a few comments about how a couple of persons like my designs its good enough for me.

[Message Edited]
Reply #32 Top
I've tried to stay out of all the messiness here for a very long time, but have to make a few points.

The gang mentality has always been a two way street here. I don't agree with much of what the three aforementioned individuals did/said in those threads over the weekend, but I would not liken their actions to "gang" mentality any more than the group of people here that regularly jump all over people for disagreeing with the management/ownership of this site.

Brad, at times you can be very rude and aggressive to people who disagree with the way the site is run. Since you're more of a techie than an artist you should take time to think about how all these artiste types are going to react when you tell them that you don't give a crap about the wallpaper section. These people are obviously going to react with hostility. They are very emotional people.

I've long complained about what I called the dog pile mentality on this message board. People aren't really allowed to disagree here. If they do they are either ridiculed or trounced by several people who had no involvement.

I'll always be grateful to Madice for helping me when I first started skinning, but now it seems he patrols the message board sniffing around for wounded animals to jump on and devour. Look at how he attacked Zodiaq last week. And he's on Stardock's payroll isn't he? I won't go so far as to call him a dog like Zodiaq did, but at times a leash might be in order.

As far as this gang/community comparison...when will people understand this site has never been and never will be a true community. Users/skinners have very little input about how the site is run. They are routinely asked for their opinions, but very rarely does anything ever come of it. I have a lot of respect for most of the few admins here who are actually active, but the majority of the admins are nowhere to be found. Treetog, Alexandrie, Mormegil, and MikeB are too bu$y to contribute a whole lot (I don't blame them, but it's a fact). I don't even know who the heck Bagginz, Dark Star, and Flyin are. Stardock employees I assume? Boxxi is rarely around anymore, so that leaves davidk, koasati, paxx, and jafo to basically run the show. It's at least nice that the four real leaders here are about the only ones who aren't on SD payroll or do contract/sub contract work for SD.

I'm rambling now so I'll leave...just know that in my mind....you (Brad) calling out people for gang mentality is like the pot calling the kettle black.

Adios~
Reply #33 Top
keep it short and smart guys...I can't stand reading long BS crap that can't hold my attention.





[Message Edited]
Reply #34 Top
Sorry..one more thing. What does it say about a site when one of the kindest, most generous individuals involved in skinning doesn't even like it here anymore. I'm talking about adni.
Reply #35 Top
Blah...stop waving Adni around! He's gone because he choose to be. Did he remove his stuff? No!

Go, leave,...Never come back!
[Message Edited]
Reply #36 Top

davad70...it's simply BECAUSE we [the ones you mentioned] are not on Stardock's payroll that you will find us here. Stardock maintains a 'back seat', leaving the administration of the site to fellow community members....skinners....just as it 'should' be...

Reasons for some others' reticence towards frequenting Wincustomize.com more than they presently do is more an indictment on the treatment they receive while here in their respective roles as admin/moderator.

People 'burn out' after constant undermining of their self-worth by miscreants hell-bent on disruption and little else....and seek breathing space.  Sounds 'extreme' but essentially that's what happens.

I've had over 25 years as a volunteer Motor Race Official to season me to the disdain shown towards those willing to give up some of their time to help something which would cease to exist without someone doing it FOR 'them, the great public'.....which is why I 'survive'...

[Must find that link....a real laugh...if I can find it]...

Reply #37 Top
Just think this all began with Frogboy making a basic comment “I don’t care if we have a wallpaper section” …. It was really just a harmless post, he never said he was doing away with it just that he didn’t care about it…maybe the lets be clear stuff got a few people wrinkled… It is like the guy is going to need speechwriters like the president to go over every word making sure there is no loaded terms or anything that can be remotely construed as offensive I mean give the guy a break oh woe, woe, woe.
Reply #38 Top
Oh, and please don't include or exemplify others whose reasons for coming/going/or whatever may or may not be a suitable parallel...
Reply #39 Top


Blah...stop waving Adni around! He's gone because he choose to be. Did he remove his stuff? No! Go, leave,...Never come back!


I didn't say it wasn't his choice did I? Yes, he left his skins here. It appears someone took yours down though....oh my bad, you've never contributed anything but smart remarks.

Oh, and please don't include or exemplify others whose reasons for coming/going/or whatever may or may not be a suitable parallel...


Adni is not around here anymore because he didn't like a lot of things around here, so I don't care if the situation is related to this incident or not.

Reply #40 Top
This is unmitigated carnage...this shall be the greatest sporting event since the days of Spartacus
Reply #41 Top
#37 by Citizen anthony roberts - 7/28/2003 9:56:55 PM
Just think this all began with Frogboy making a basic comment “I don’t care if we have a wallpaper section” …. It was really just a harmless post, he never said he was doing away with it just that he didn’t care about it…maybe the lets be clear stuff got a few people wrinkled… It is like the guy is going to need speechwriters like the president to go over every word making sure there is no loaded terms or anything that can be remotely construed as offensive I mean give the guy a break oh woe, woe, woe.


! AMEN

We think the problem stems from cross-pollination via "users" becoming subscribers/customers and then they feel a certain inherent right to complain more than if they hadn't purchased anything. Wellllll, hells bells this might be all well and good but "the customer is NOT always right" and the day Brad charges 700 bux for Stardock merchandise is the day I *might* take issue with not being treated like royalty (insert sarcastic smirk).

Remember sumpin' would ya?

1). Nobody asked you to post your stuff here
2). Nobody EXPECTS you to post your stuff here
3). Wanna have sumpin' ALWAYS get IN? Then skin!
4). Is it really FAIR to every SKINNER out there that some chump can mass_upload work that doesn't take as much time as skinning via WB/Icons/Cursors.... TRY your hand at making a curosr...TRY making a WB skin...TRY making an icon set...etc. and then bitch cuz your wall didn't make it on a SKINNING SITE? ahhhhhhh!

Hmm. Let's not lose sight that this SITE gives more than it recieves for the most part.

We give up we quit we are taking our work elsewhere...NOT!
Reply #42 Top
Oh...you must have clicked on my nick, David70.
Reply #43 Top
Oh...you must have clicked on my nick, David70


Actually I didn't need to, I already knew it without looking.
Reply #44 Top
I was just wondering why my recent walls have gotten ratings of 1? It's kind of wierd considering they did make it past the "moderation". Just a question.
Reply #45 Top
Cross1492 that's because they are lowering their moderations standards so people don't freak out and start "why me?" threads. So if you have a "1" that prolly means that if Frogboy hadn't given the A_OK to lower the recent standards then it would have never gotten in.
Reply #46 Top

There are a few things to bear in mind in any topic lke this:

Regarding "Rudeness"
This charge gets thrown around without any substantiation. I agree I'm "aggressive" in that I'll wade into a discussion. These wallpaper "wars" for lack of a better term were well on their way before I waded into the middle of it.

I wade into such things because I admittedly really enjoy stimulating conversatoin. I don't get "emotional" about it or upset by it because, well I guess I can't help but remember that we're talking about wallpapers. I spend many hours working on skins and themes and objects and such but I never kid myself that this is "important" work. It's for fun. And because of that I don't take it that serious.

Skinning is supposed to be fun, remember?

Regarding double standards
What I object to strenuously is a double standard in behavior. On the one hand, you have a group of people (and as a side note, I will agree that it's probably unfair to group AP67 as part of the "gang" because he's generally tried to behave with some principle) who are incredibly sensitive to anyone disagreeing with them. On the other hand, they dish out all kinds of nastiness.

If someone wants to point out where I was unfairly "rude" to these people please feel free to point it out.

Regarding "dog piling"
You will always have the majority of a population of a message board side with the home site. After all, that's why they're there. I remember awhile back on Customize.org even though the admins (at the time, different admins now) were saying and doing things that were blatantly wrong, you still had people there staunchly defending them.

It therefore should be no surprise that a group of relative newcomers bashing the site openly might get "piled on" a bit. And even then, it was pretty gentle compared to the things they were saying.

As for Madice, he's a very independent person. He has quite often disagreed with me and said so. But he practices what he preaches -- when he wants there to be change, he uses private email because he knows that real change happens in private, not through public browbeating.  Davad, I've known you a long time and you have historically tended to automatically, almost instinctively, assume that those with different views from you are not only wrong but you tend to imply some sort of moral weakness on their part.  What you say about Madice is a typical example -- he can't possibly be an independent thinker because he doesn't mirror your views, he must be a lackey of Stardock?

Regarding "community"
Saying that skinners have no say on this site is..well ridiculous. Who exactly do you think runs this site? Me? I mean seriously, who runs WinCustomize? Don't say "Stardock" as if there is some sort of mystical energy being secretly pushing the controls. There are only 3 office personnel from Stardock who regularly visit here -- me, Karmagirl, and T-man.  So which of us 3 do you imagine is somehow running this? If you say it's me, then all I can say is, wow, I'm honored. Between developing Galactic Civilizations (visit https://www.galciv.com sometime, you might be amazed that I'm part of a message board community nearly as large as this one), managing Object Desktop, running Stardock, etc. that having some sort of iron grip on WinCustomize is beyond me.  So who does run WinCustomize? The volunteer moderators and admins. And who are they? SKINNERS. And where do they get their views from? OTHER SKINNERS. As far as activity, running the site is not relaly involve chatting on message boards, btw. It's moderating skins, news, suggesting site changes, etc. all of these things happen where you don't see it. And it's there that Treetog, Alexandrie, Jafo, Boxxi (just because you don't see him around doesn't mean he's not around), Paxx, DavidK, Koasati, Mormegil, and others help decide things. And they are all skinners and artists.

 

 

Reply #47 Top
It's funny with all your words,David70 ..You find comfort/satisfaction in bashising a poor little "no one" like me





[Message Edited]
Reply #48 Top

David...it is perhaps significant that a person can reach the 'lofty' heights of 'Journeyman' without actually skinning anything [or rather having anything here on this site], but contributes positively over many, many years through interaction on this board, and those of every other skinning site [as I recall].

Being a valued contributor does not necessitate a portfolio of works, skins or otherwise, but rather an on-going interest and involvement with the community[s] as a whole...

Reply #49 Top
#47 by China - 7/28/2003 10:23:48 PM It's funny with all your words..You find comfort/satisfaction in bashising a poor little no one like me


No bashing you dear....just responding to your cracks. You're not a no one...you're a journeyman like me....a respected member of this "community" (I did look at your profile for that)
Reply #50 Top

Davad  writes: Adni is not around here anymore because he didn't like a lot of things around here, so I don't care if the situation is related to this incident or not.

This is an interesting observation Davad. Do you realize that you have basically taken the view that if someone leaves it must be the fault of WinCustomize?

Do you know why Adni doesn't visit as much? You are certainly implying that it is due to some failing on the part of Wincustomize. So please, share this with us.  I like Adni a great deal. I do think some artists / skin authors were jealous of his popularity. But that is something that will happen anytime you're successful at something.

Please don't play games of implications. Facts make for much better substitutes.

People migrate from site to site all the time. People migrate here from deviantART and people migrate to dA. That grass is greener on the other side of the fence.

Emotional intuition makes for interesting conversation but it doesn't make it true. Submissions and traffic to WinCustomize have contiuously incresed over time. That would imply that the moderators and admins are not "clueless".