Apocalypse_67
Sometime after she compared WInCustomize with a restraunt and herself as a customer at said restraunt.
Apparently, the volunteer moderators and admins here are, in her view, waiters and waitresses to serve her. She apparently sees a hierachy in community participation with her and others like her at the top of the pyramid and somewhere at the bottom are volunteers who actually run these sites on a day to day basis.
You will notice...that most of the criticizm comes from ppl who havent made a single skin of wall worthy of upload.
*sigh*
DA and WC are two different sites. If you like one better than the other, then please support that site. I don't see what the big fuss is about. Apparently a whole lot of people prefer DA to WC, and apparently a whole lot of peolpe prefer WC to DA. Do I go around DA saying how much they suck and how much WC is better? Come on now, we are gown ups, we are allowed our preferences.
DA and WC are totally different beasts. DA is an Art site, while WC is mainly a Windows customization site. Consequently I find that a lot of people submitting to DA like to label themselves as "artists" while a lot of people submitting to WC like to consider themselves as "skinners". Nothing wrong with either. Even the wallpapers subitted here are primarely considerd as such: wallpapers, as in meant to have icons on top, as in meant to complement the general look and feel of a customized GUI. While at DA, wallpapers are primarely submitted as "art". You could take the same piece, frame it and put it on your living room wall.
I doubt many downloaders here download stricly wallpapers. I feel quite comfortable saying that people here download wallpapers that will match the skins or theme they use.
DA have a LOT of wallpaper, or other digital artform. A LOT. Much more than they have skins and themes. In general, DA have a whole lot more stuff than we do here, but they have a comparable amount of visitors (or a bit more). It's really just a mathematical question. Imagine a site gets 1 million downloads among 1,000 pieces. That's an average of 1000 downloads per piece. But if another site gets the same amount of downloads among a total of 1 million pieces, well that's an average of 1 download per piece.
We'll never be DA. We'll never have that many wallpapers or skins to download from. For some people, that's why they like WC.
So, anyway. I have nothing against DA. Nothing at all. It's a completely different site with a completely different approach. Either you like one, or you like the other. Make your choice and move on.
Thank you.
I agree. dA and WinCustomize are roughly equal in traffic.
But they are very different. dA is an art community. WinCustomize is a skin site. dA is the world's #1 art site. WC is the world's #1 skin site.
Saying one is going to go over to dA is not much different than saying they're leaving to go visit Slashdot.
If you make things to customize your desktop with and want as many people in the world to see it and possibly use it, this is the site to do so.
If you want to create art to have part of a community portfolio, dA is the place to do it.
dA gets a lot more wallpapers and artwork than WC gets. WC gets a lot more skins and themes than dA gets.
China: Exactly
In fact, I wrote just today on this issue on my dA journal:
http://frogboy2.deviantart.com/journal
People who are relatively new to this sort of thing mistakenly think that the community is one site. It's not. It's many sites. I visit dA, Deskmod, Skinbase, Neowin, amongst others on a daily basis. Some of the people here are moderators on those other sites as well.
You can always recognize a "newbie" (so to speak) when they take the attitude of "I'm goign to remove all my stuff and go to site X". As if these sites are competitors like Coke vs. Pepsi.
| #51 by Scribe Frogboy - 7/27/2003 3:24:47 PM As for AP67, for someone who's downloaded so much from the site, I'd think you would feel some sort of...well responsibility to give something back. Just because you've bought software from Stardock doesn't even begin to cover the costs of running this site. |
| I personally resent the attitude that you and Ap67 and lady A have taken that we are somehow basically your servants to provide you with a "service". |
| But those are people who have provided real contributions to the community. Not some relatively newcomers who popped in over the last several months thinking they are god's gift to the world. |

| [...] in fact most of the blame lies within the site's administration. |
You do see that 'suck up to the bosses' is what is so inflammatory....the suggestion of a need to 'brown nose', when all that is required is common sense understanding and appreciation of the efforts expended, whether 100% favourable to one particular individual, or not.
The admins and moderators at least 'try' to serve the common good, where what is ideal for a site's success is not always in harmony with an individual's perception of what he might want the site to be, or do.
6 and a half hours, now...[though I did manage a shower and a coffee]...and we're still here debating smoke, and seeking the fire....
.
Ap67, the system tracks bytes downloaded:
Nick: Apocalypse_67
UserID: 513520
User Level: 3
Bytes Downloaded: 675671 k
That's 675 MEGABYTES.
As for your contributions, since they are not here, we only have your word which, given how off yoru download estimates were, make me inclined not to believe how popular your submissions were.
Which is, of course, the problem. Once you delete your stuff, you lose any clout or any moral high ground you might have had. Now you're just a user who has used up 675 megabytes of bandwidth.
I have a lot more submissions here with more downloads you had I'm sure and I've only downloaded around 300 megabytes of stuff and I've been here (obviously) from day 1.
There's nothing wrong with downloading lots of stuff. But at some point, one thinks that youwoudl feel some sort of obligation to give something back. You claim you had a lot of stuff here. But it's not here now so it's hard to say what you have given back to the community.
As for your access level - yes, access levels are determined by one's contribution to the community. Only 0.1% of users get promoted to elite access (apprentice or higher). I certainly don't see how someone with nearly 700 megs of downloads and no submissions should have elite access.
| No body of evidence, no crime commited. Right? |
(Minor detail but...) Ok, I will vouch for A_67...I have taken numerous peeks at his skins in the past and can confirm that the total download WAS around 300,000. (I dont remember the exact number but...) And...if you figure that the avg skin is about 250k (Which is probably a very low estimate...) the amount of data that ppl downloaded from his skins/walls was...75000000kb OR 73242mb. (Remember, this is using 250k as an avg skin size...many are over 2000kb so, the real number could be MUCH higher) So, Id say that he has contributed to the community MUCH more than he has taken away.
Ap67, I'm sure you'll be happy on dA. Some of your wallpapers are nearing he 100 download mark I saw.
But seriously, you can't have it both ways. You can make whatever claim you want for yoru contributions. You removed the evidence of that contribution, not us.
Look, Ap, we've been around for a long time. Before WC many of us were around years before then. People like you and Lady A and such have come and gone the whole time. It's an established pattern.
Do you wonder why so many long timers here dont' take it very seriously? Because it's the same post, different person, different website. These same posts have shown up on Skinz.org, WinCustomize, deviantART, Deskmod, etc.
And they always end up going the same route. But let me save you some time.
For the next few weeks you'll submit everything you possibly can do site X (where X could be deviantART, Deskmod, or whatever sit eyou choose). YOu'll do your best to promote it. You'll then discover that things aren't quite as happy as you had thought. Downloads aren't nearly as high as you would like. Few comments. A loss of recognition.
At some point, you might complain on a message board about this. At that point, you'll discover that site X's denziens are not any more tolerant of complaints as this site or any other site.
You'll discover that the grass is not so green on the other side of the fence. But at the same time, you'll be too proud to admit you made a mistake and in fact deny such a thing if asked when the time comes.
We've seen this a lot for many years on many sites. It always goes roughly the same way.
I can name two dozen high profile authors who, over the years, have gotten mad at WinCustomize for some reason (subscirptions, commercial software, ratings, flame in comments, lack of promotion, etc.). They proudly announce they're going somewhere else. But discover that they don't get nearly the recognition they thought they'd get. And they fade away.
I'll use one example of this - Carlitus. I use him because he was one author whose contributions were truly significant. I'm not talking a bunch of standard glassy swirl wallpaper stuff (no offense). But icons, themes, and other significant artwork that was used by hundreds of thousands of real people.
An artist who really made a big difference. He left because he disagrees with the site having a download limit for non-subscribers. I don't think he recognizes the costs in running a site of this magnitude but it was his right. And with him went literally thousands of icons and themes and objects. Irreplaceable stuff. And there was nothing we could do to placate him.
And so throughout the winter he submitted work to dA. But submitting work is tedious. Especially most of it gets relatively few downloads. He had individual things here that over a 100,000 downloads. It's hard to go from that to a fraction of that.
And so one of the most active contributors of 2002 has not submitted anything to a major skin site since last Winter (that I can find anyway and I do look).
And so I ask you, in the end, who suffers? WinCustomize? Sure, to some extent but it doesn't affect traffic because people don't know what they're missing. Once a website reaches critical mass, individual content doesn't have that kind of effect.
The ones who suffer are the community.
And so the same pattern plays out year after year. Your post could have appeared on dA's message boards. There have been plenty of them over the years just like yours saying that they're going to go to WinCustomize or Skinbase or Deskmod. Same reasons.
But at the end of the day, you have to decide why you even make this stuff.
I'm not afraid to say that I like to share my stuff but I even more like to see lots of people using it. Lots of people commenting on it. And that's what WinCustomize has going for it. That's because WC treats artists extremely well. It may not be some imagined ideal, but in the real world of intellectual property handling and distribution, WC is pretty good at it. And that's why it's the #1 skinning site by a mile.
And believe me, WC did everything it coudl to try not to be #1. It limited the # of sections to being a select few. It moderates wallpapers. It has actively promoted other websites. When I was on TechTV, it wasn't WinCustomize I mentioend first as a place to go, it was dA and Deskmod.
To make a long story short, you may find that the grass isn't as green on the other side as you thought.
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