Party vs. Army

from Elemental Forums

I have really enjoyed this game so far and think it is doing some unique and interesting things. The best thing about it for me, and the thing that sets it apart from other 4xs, is the feeling of a small group of underdogs against an overwhelming evil force. This, I expect, will only be reinforced when the “gather your allies” aspect is included. This is especially powerful in the medieval fantasy genre as it is the central narrative around which most of the genre focuses. I think there is a design change that could really push this over the top. Have the battle unit be the party rather than the army. The party, a small group of exceptional individuals, is the core of most fantasy literature and almost all fantasy computer and table-top rpgs.

The change is a big one conceptually, but relatively small in terms of game mechanics. Instead of training groups of units, every unit you train will be a single unit. Ideally these units would have a simple skill tree (I’m thinking something like XCOM where they end up with 4-5 traits) that would make them a little more individualized while still being less than champions. This even fits nicely with Elemental Lore as you are playing as the last remnants of the Kingdom of Altar, the faction that can train Henchmen.

Right now, I find the trained units to be the big drag on the game. They are generic and expendable, and just feel like they don’t fit the personality that the rest of the game exudes. I never care about them, even if I have leveled them up. Champions, on the other hand, are really fun. I was lucky enough to get Keplin and Varda on my first play-through, and they both feel appropriately epic, as does Tandis. The feeling they can create, of a few awesome warriors wading through armies of darklings and Trogs, is where this game shines. I urge you guys to go further in that direction. I think it not only accentuates the game’s strengths, but also would really highlight the difference between this game and the glut of good to excellent 4x fantasy games that have hit the market in the last year or so.

Some related ideas:

Champions are great. Earning them through quests is cool, but random. There should be a dependable way to pick up 1 or 2. Maybe a certain building could grant one; or a scripted quest that happens at a certain turn or other easily reachable threshold.

Gaining the Allegiance of a minor faction should grant you a champion from that faction.

I maxed out both Varda and Keplin without too much trouble, a repeatable trait that grants a very small stat boost would be appreciated.

24,806 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from SorcererKing Forums Top

I'd also certainly love to see a dependable way to get at least a second hero, without relying on randomness.

Reply #2 from SorcererKing Forums Top

I want Janusk v2!

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from SorcererKing Forums Top

Quoting AlLanMandragoran, reply 2

I want Janusk v2!
End of AlLanMandragoran's quote

Agreed! Janusk 2.0 plus a huge variety of city administrators including champion administrators would be nice. ^^

Reply #4 from SorcererKing Forums Top

I like the idea of trained units gaining additional traits every few levels or so to a maximum of four or five traits.  Not as powerful as champions but would make it worth keeping say a soldier unit around.  Also either a larger skill tree for champions or some sort of additional bonus above max level though I would prefer the larger tree.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Maybe you can add a kind of Fame-system, where you can earn Fame-points, which can be spent on heroes at an Adventures Guild. Of course the Adventures Guild must be researched by the Sovereign and built in one of the cities. The research for the Adentures Guild reflects that the sovereign should learn to attract heroes. Fame can of course also be earned through quests.

 

System components: Fame-points and an adventures guild.

 

Another way could be that heroes from time to time appears and offer to join the cause against the Sorcerer King. This could be dependent on a hidden variable, Fame, that could be adjusted by doing quests, actions etc. 

 

The choice of heroes in the adventures guild or appearing from time to time could depend on which actions you have performed so far. If you have acted brave and heroic you could attract heroes like Torin the Chosen, or if you have acted more evil you could attract heroes like Skeleton or Hordak (He-Man), of course with their own agendas. Torin would only stay if you continued to act brave and courageous, while Skeleton might scheme to overthrow you, if you levelled him too much....

Reply #6 from SorcererKing Forums Top

You know what? I would be very interested in a 4X game where my "armies" were more like DnD-style parties of Heroes/Adventurers/Whatever as opposed to masses faceless, nameless troops. I realize that a grand empire ought to have grand armies but in Sorcerer King we are basically playing a minor faction that has gotten too big for its britches, right?

What if Sir Kael and Bailey actually had some, you know, real hit points? What if they had a level up tree like Tandis? What if there were plenty of other heroes out there to hire/recruit/rescue/etc.? Maybe you could have a few Major Heroes, like Tandis, along with Lesser Heroes, like Sir Kael with enough HP to survive the first battle, and NO faceless, red shirt soldiers?

Something along those lines would REALLY do a lot to set Sorcerer King apart from the the modern fantasy 4X crowd that has emerged over the past few years.

Let me have a Party of Heroes instead of a faceless army!

What do you say Frogboy?

Reply #7 from SorcererKing Forums Top

Stardock doesn't quite seem to know what they want from this.

In some ways it is like a fantasy X-com : focus on tactical battles, leveling heroes, equipment and crafting (instead of R+D), quest and spell system all seem to work well like this. On the other hand, trained units are spammy and boring, and enemy uses a very limited variety of tactics and troops.

 

It is also marketed as a 4X - you have diplomacy with minor races, can build villages expand, and make strategic decisions of what to do with your amy (quest, offense, defense, etc). However, the 4X components are even more simplified than in AOW - expanding is always good, spam outposts and upgrades, pretty easy and effective to spam troops (up to logistics cap), while enemy spams you back and generally doesn't require much strategy to overcome.

 

I feel it would be better if they focused on one, rather than trying to somehow make SK encompass both. This was my biggest problem with FE - it was trying to be a tactical combat 4X questy RPG, but elements ended up not meshing well and being of vastly different quality (TC was great, empire building / diplomacy wasn't).

Reply #8 from SorcererKing Forums Top

On the other hand, trained units are spammy and boring, and enemy uses a very limited variety of tactics and troops.

 

You realize this is an early beta build, right?

Reply #9 from SorcererKing Forums Top

Sure. In particular, I know unit variety is quite low and enemy AI is probably rudimentary. However, I don't know if this will translate to new units being more interesting - as is, I feel one is best and spam it, and the differences between the units I can build feels pretty minimal. Additionally, current economy / game rules encourage me to spam units up to cap and sacrifice them, instead of carefully leveling them up. This would be fine, but doesn't seem to be the direction SD is trying to take this.

Reply #10 from SorcererKing Forums Top

Quoting Wraith367, reply 9

Sure. In particular, I know unit variety is quite low and enemy AI is probably rudimentary. However, I don't know if this will translate to new units being more interesting - as is, I feel one is best and spam it, and the differences between the units I can build feels pretty minimal. Additionally, current economy / game rules encourage me to spam units up to cap and sacrifice them, instead of carefully leveling them up. This would be fine, but doesn't seem to be the direction SD is trying to take this.
End of Wraith367's quote

 

Well, that's just conjecture at the moment. We shall see about that but I don't share your pessimism. (Although I do share your concern.)

 

 

 

Reply #11 from SorcererKing Forums Top

The neutral factions may provide heroes in some cases.