Mystery Solved! :3

from Elemental Forums

Here, I found out why AI is nigh untouchable by monsters.

This happened last night where monsters was hyperaggressive for some reason, abandoning lairs to murder a hero or stuff, I was attacked so much.. way more than usual. It felt like monsters was out for blood for the first time after over 100 hours playing this game, I've had a ravenous spider army chase my low lvl army for like 20+ turns  until I managed to kill enough low level armies to smash it with my healer when it stocked up enough mana. I actually felt like the world was dangerous for the first time I've had my armies run away like girls and hide in the cities and fortresses. And that never happened before.

 

So yesterday was really entertaining and fun for me. And let's get to the mystery solving part. Because monsters was so aggressive I was able to figure out the main problem with monsters and why AIs is immortal to them. Its because stardock gone and screwed up badly lolz. Stardock made monsters target tiles instead of AI enemy units!

 

That's right, they target tiles not units.

 

Troll army lets out a war cry and wants to eat Ruah because Ruah steak sounds tasty.

Ruah trolls the Troll army by moving.

 

Trolls: What I could've sworn the Ruah was here... oh well lets go after him in that next tile!

Troll army attacks!

Ruah: Hur hur hur dumb trolls i'm the real troll here!

Ruah moves out of harm way again and plunders the lair for free lootz!

Troll army is now sadface and emoquits the game because attacking ai units is futile endeavor and hands in the resign application for working as a monster of Stardock and turns in a application form towards the Barbarians of Civ 5. 

 

At this point I felt real bad for the Troll army and so I helped it by murdering Ruah for them.

Ruah got a cracked skull for her troubles.

 

 

And then the second mystery of lackluster response from AI factions when you crush their invading armies and launch a counter invasion to hurt them?

Easy, they don't recgonize the threat and wave it away and send armies towards other factions that they're at war against instead of trying to defend against a faction that's eating them alive without resistance. At this point i have razed five cities from Gilden and is staring at their capital now.

 

Their response? Send armies against helpless capitar who can't even hurt them because they are lulz weak must bully. This makes me understand that AI lacks the ability to prioritize threats. Why not just have AI worry more and more if they're losing more and more cities to a certain faction.

 

I'm not even sure on what to do anymore now, learning this has made me understand that AI factions is just basically an barbarian AI. Barbarians almost never have direction in their actions and response. I think i'm done with that map, I pulled into lead again. And Gonna be pretty invincible again. Too boring, i quit civ 5 because i'm invincible as autocratic empire too many weak ais kissing my shoes because they don't stand a chance otherwise, and it looks like it's the same here too :(

 

 

Edit: Oh to solve this problem... Its very easy, just let the Monsters and ruffians and wildlands have their own turn phase instead of simultaneous turns. And then, human players will witness lots of murdering going on instead of being hidden. Barbarians in Civ 5 have their own turn phase they murder AI units. Fix plz stardock.

12,418 views 12 replies
Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Primal_Savage, reply 1

The problem you are describing (AI creatures moving one tile) can be fixed by unlocking AI movement (It's locked at 1). I have a mod which unlocks AI creatures movement in stages (From 1 to 2, from 2 to 3, from 3 to 4, and from 4 to 5). It's called XtraMonsterMovement.
End of Primal_Savage's quote

 

No, not that. I'm saying that the monsters target the tiles, not the enemy units. Because if they targeted the units instead of tiles, Ruah would've died. In civ series, the Barbarians always act last. Its in this order, Human's turn, AI's turn, then barbarian AI's turn then human's turn. The issue is that there's simultaneous turn for both AI factions and monsters which creates this problem.

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Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

The other issue that would arise here is also the AI vs. AI battles. Most people look at the monster vs. AI's, but there are also the AI vs. AI has similar problems (which doesn't apply to the XtraMonsterMovement mod) as they can move as far as they need already. This point has been brought up many times, and I like the idea of keeping simultaneous turns. Thus, splitting the monster and AI units to separate tuns would still leave this problem between the AI vs. AI battle movement. The cost to having their own turns would mean that the turns last a few more seconds per AI and thus you end up with a long change of turn. I look forward to see what solution they come up with beyond separating the turns out. 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Primal_Savage, reply 5

There is an AI vs AI battle movement problem?
End of Primal_Savage's quote

You haven't noticed it... it is the same problem with the monsters, but it occurs less often as you pointed out the movements are the same, but does still occur and for the same reasons in the post above.

 

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd take few seconds longer turn time as long as it means the AI vs AI battles isn't screwed up badly by simultaneous movements too.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

It is not a few seconds... it would expand to a few minutes in short order (similar to a late game Civ 5) As each calculation for the AI must take place during their turn and you would end up adding quite a bit of time. A few seconds in the beginning of the game, to a few minutes mid game, to a longer wait time.

@Primal - I use cheats to observe the AI and see what they do. Try running the game with -cheat and typing ctrl+u (see the map). You can make observations when this happens.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

This game is unplayable for me until this whole mess is fixed. Frogboy is one stubborn mule to keep denying all of the player evidence of this that keeps getting posted :(

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

He is a software guy afaik, this could very well be a hardware issue, making it work better on low-end computers etc. Probably nothing wrong with the code, which is why he is "stubborn", but this should help him understand I think. ;)

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't think there is anything wrong with the code. The AI will attack these units when they encounter these units. The solution to this problem is not as obvious as everyone seems to think. Any change in this encounter code can very well move to an entire overhaul of the system.

The issue pointed out above is that the AI is doing a great job avoiding monsters. I call that good programming and thinking by the AI. It knows it can avoid them, so it does (I would in game if I could... feel a little guilt, then smile). Unfortunately our view on the matter is that we cannot do that similar movement and so we feel slighted, by the fact we cannot.

Should this change the system of AI vs. Monsters, probably not. I'd leave that and focus on other areas where the AI needs some attention. I'm sure Brad has a list of things he would like to see happen and I would like to see what he wants to happen, because that will make the AI better.