Poko8

Join Date 08/2008

+20

No Fog-of-War AI Evaluation

I've played 4 or 5 games of LH so far, and, while I think Stardock has done an incredible job making the game more enjoyable in terms of game mechanics, visuals, tactical battles, and (particularly) heroes, the strategic AI still needs a lot of work. In all of my games, I far outstripped the AI. First on challenging, then hard, then expert, and then even insane. As in, I'd meet the AI and I'd have 60-70 power while they'd be at 20-30. It's not me - I'm not that good.

To better provide feedback to the devs, I started 2 new games with cheats enabled. I turned off fog of war, here's what the AI was (or wasn't) doing.

Game Settings

Hard / Hard

Normal monsters

Medium World

Dense resources, magic

3 AIs

First game had some of parrotmath's mods active, but I turned them off for the second game.

Edit: version 1.1

Overall Observations

None of the AIs started building anything until turn 10. Ignoring their poor first building choices for now, why would they wait until turn 10? Can someone else try to repeat this? Ctrl-U is the remove fog cheat once you enable them.

The AI is not intelligent about city enchantments. It seems almost like they can only cast one per turn, and cannot cast them on the turn a city is created. Mana isn't the issue, as often they wait to cast Meditation (0 mana cost). They seem to prioritize enchantments on their sovereign. Is that deliberate?

This has been an issue I've reported since the FE beta - the AI often loses a turn of a city or an outpost because, once a settler arrives, they need to wait until the next turn to settle or build the outpost. There's no reason for that.

AI sovereigns and champions like to sleep late and sit on the couch eating cheetos, or something. I didn't count, but for half or a third of the first 10 turns, the AI sovereign just sat there doing nothing. Nothing. It's like they can't cast an enchantment without losing all of their move.

When they did move, they'd often spend all of their move going one space on plains. As if grabbing a goodie hut or quest ended their move for the turn even when they should have one or two move left.

Another that I've reported since FE beta - AI units departing cities move one square out of the city and no further. It wastes and entire turn of that unit's movement.

Intelligently setting taxes - all of the AIs left taxes on low. They got 0.8g in return for 12% unrest. I can't imagine many players make that same trade, but people who are better than I should weigh in.

That's the main list, here's the turn by turn.

Game 1

I found my city, turn taxes to oppressive, garrison my sovereign, and watch the AIs.

Turn 1

Magnar: Started on a 5/3/1, there's a 2/4/3 nearby that might be better

Carrodus: Started on a 3/3/0, he's next to a 4/3/0 that's a little better

Kulan: Started on a 4/3/2, that's the best around

Turn 2

Magnar: He did nothing - just sat there. Didn't found a city. I think he cast burning blade on himself and called that a turn.

Carrodus: Founds a city on the 3/3/0, which becomes a 3/3/3. I'm ok with the AI cheating, especially on Hard when it has a crappy start.

Kulan: He did nothing - just sat there. As with Magnar, I think he cast some self-enchantments.

Turn 3

Magnar: He moved to the 2/4/3, did not settle. Ended his turn there

Carrodus: He's moving around to grab some goodies, or maybe to attack some wildings. Could go either way.

Kulan: He settles the 4/3/2

Side note - all the factions founding cities stick with low taxes, increasing unrest by 12% in exchange for something like 0.8g. I don't know what other people think, but a 12% penalty to research and construction seems not worth it for 0.8g.

Turn 4

Magnar: Finally settled the 2/4/3, but didn't go anywhere afterwards

Carrodus: He moved one space, not 3 towards a goodie hut

Kulan: He sat in the same place, didn't move

Side note - on season 4, not one of them is actually building anything

Enchantments:

Magnar: He just founded the city this turn, so maybe he gets a pass, but it has 0 enchantments (3 essence). Oppression is possible

Carrodus: His 3 essence city has meditation. A good choice, but he has life and air - propaganda and sovereign's call would be amazing on that city. Carrodus himself has 2 enchantments, so maybe he used mana on that. Neither is tutelage though.

Kulan: His 2 essence city has meditation also, but is missing oppression or propaganda. He was smart enough to cast tutelage on himself at least, Maybe that's where his mana went.

Turn 5

Magnar: He retreated to his capitol at full hp, which now has meditation

Carrodus: He grabbed a goodie hut, continued enchanting himself. He now has Evade, Courage, and Regen. He somehow used all 3 of his move moving the one space to the goodie hut.

Kulan:

Still no one constructing anything.

Turn 6

Magnar: He left the city solo, but stayed just next to the city, didn't actually go anywhere

Carrodus: Stood still

Kulan: Stood still

No construction from anyone yet

Turn 7

Magnar: Moved one square into the woods. Now has oppression!

Carrodus: Killed some wildings and leveled to 2

Kulan: Used 2 move to move 1 space on plains and got a 2nd goodie hut. Now has oppression!

Turn 8

Magnar: Moving solo through the woods

Carrodus: Used 3 move to capture the goodie hut of the wilding it killed last turn

Kulan: Heading towards a weak quest

Why isn't anyone building anything?

Turn 9

Magnar: Just got out of the woods

Carrodus: Retreated to his capitol to let a hurt militia recover

Kulan: Successfully quested, got a second hero

No one is building still

Save game

Turn 10

Magnar: Quested, got a second hero. Just started a monument

Carrodus: Carrodus left the city solo. Used all of his move moving only one space out of the city. Started building a bazaar.

Kulan: Stood still, champion stood still. Started building a merchant

Turn 11

Magnar: Magnar's headed back to his capitol, second hero stood still

Carrodus: joined outside of the city by one unit, but didn't go anywhere

Kulan: Joined into an army with his champion, got a goodie hut

I was kind of amazed by this, so I disabled mods and started a second game. Same settings.

Game 2

Turn 1

Magnar: On a 4/3/2, that's the best around

Relias: On a 4/3/2, that's the best around

Verga: On a 4/3/2, that's the best around

Turn 2

They all settled their 4/3/2's, but no enchantments, no construction

Turn 3

None of them move, no construction, some enchantments. Magnar and Relias went for Meditation, Verga for Enchanted Hammers. Why didn't Verga cast meditation also?

Turn 4

They move and cast their second enchantment. Why not last turn? Still no construction

Turn 5

2 of 3 moved, still no construction

Turn 6

2 of 3 moved, still no construction. Magnar is just sitting there 2 spaces from a couple skeletons he could easily destroy.

Here's the sequence - I screenshotted 6-8, but he's been standing there since he moved there on 4:

Turn 6:

Turn 7:

Turn 8:

Turn 8:

Verga didn't move this turn. Magnar finally moved into the woods.

Turn 10:

They all start building

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abob101

Interesting! All you can really say to that if correct it looks like there are some quick wins to be made on the AI. Like, consider all empty Essence slots, and if there's nothing better to do add a zero cost one like Meditation; always be building something; don't waste movement points; and check at the end of each turn whether a settler unit has reached its goal and can build, in which case it should build. In an ideal world it would also use Essence slots and start building something in the new town before ending the turn.

Not using all movement points may be related to what sweatyboatman observed, that the AI stacks only seem to be able to do one thing at once. I assume what happens is that the AI stack achieves its goal (e.g. a goodie hut) and then stops, because it has achieved its goal, and it won't be given a new goal before the start of the next turn.

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On the specific issue of taxation, I personally worry about getting too far behind the AI in research, and gold doesn't seem that important at the start, at least until you can rush things. So in other words I leave it on as low a setting as I can for as long as I can. I'll leave it on no taxation if feasible. I haven't really experimented much with the higher settings, there probably are better ways to mini-max it. A default setting of Low has worked fine for me so far. (I'm currently winning on Ridiculous but I've never tried Insane.)

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abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

Intresting... I'm doing a lot of modding at the moment, and have spend quite a bit of time watching the AI in early stages to see if they have been constructing my custom improvements, using my new spells etc. They seem to start out reasonably ok... they always seem to get into building something fairly quickly.

So i'm rather suprised to see this. I tend to run on Challenging AI is about the only signficant difference I can see. I'll do a similar test run to yours in the next couple of days and post it.

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I swapped to Challenging / Challenging, the first turn, all 3 AI sovereigns enchanted themselves but didn't move or found a city. The second turn 2 of the AIs continued enchanting themselves and didn't do anything else, one founded a city. In this case, the city did start building a merchant the turn after the city was founded. The rest followed similarly.

I went back to Hard / Hard, and, again, no production until turn 10.

Challenging World / Hard AI, no production until turn 9

Normal World / Hard AI, no production until turn 10

Expert / Expert, no production until turn 9

Expert / Ridiculous, no production until turn 10

Normal / Normal, started producing the turn after founding the city

It appears to only be a problem on Hard AI and higher

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How bizarre. Certainly sounds like a bug, and one which would presumably have quite a big effect on the difficulty of the game, bearing in mind how important the first ten turns are.

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abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

OK i've done a test, and unfortunately I have to say that I had similar results... not quite as bad but definitely highlighted some issues. Pretty much same thing as you... the AI sometimes takes ages to get construction going.

For my test I used Challenging AI and these world settings:

Game Settings

Normal monsters

Medium World

Temperate Map Type

Low Wildland

3 AIs - Markin, Ceresa, Karavox

Mods disabled

Start Locations

Markin - Started on a 3-4 with a 4-3-2 and multiple 4-3-1 nearby

Ceresa - Started on a 3-3 with a 4-3-1 one tile away that would make the best start

Karavox - Started on a 4-3-1 with a 5-3-1 one tile away that would make the best start

Turn 1

Markin - Casts Stoneskin, doesn't move

Ceresa - Casts Summon Shadow Warg, doesn't move

Karavox - Casts Burning Blade, doesn't move

Turn 2

Markin - Casts Regeneration, moves 1 square to another 3-4 location

Ceresa - Moves to the 4-3-1 which is the best start location in the area

Karavox - Moves to the 5-3-1 which is the best start location in the area

Turn 3

Markin - Moves to the 4-3-2 location

Ceresa - Settles the 4-3-1 and moves the stack 1 square away, but doesn't cast a city enhancement or build anything

Karavox - Settles the 5-3-1 and moves the stack 1 square away, but doesn't cast a city enhancement or build anything

Turn 4

Markin - Settles the 4-3-2 and moves the stack 1 square away, but doesn't cast a city enhancement or build anything

Ceresa - Moves through the stack through the city to explore the opposite direction, casts Meditation and starts building a Workshop

Karavox - Moves 1 tile to (I think) pick up a goodie hut, casts Insipration, no construction

Turn 5

Markin - Moves the stack towards a Quest location, casts Meditation (still has one free city enhancement slot though) and starts building a Monument

Ceresa - Picked up a goodie hut (scores a Hate stone)

Karavox - Heads towards a Mite lair (ends turn next to the lair), still no construction

Turn 6

Markin - Doesn't move onto the quest location, changes direction instead

Ceresa - Explores further

Karavox - The Mites attacked Karavoxs army - Karavox wins, no construction still

Turn 7

Markin - Explores

Ceresa - Explores further

Karavox - Clears the Mite Lair, still no construction

That's as far as I went but at this stage, poor old Karavox still has not started building anything in his city. He settled back on turn 3.

Markin settled on turn 4. Cast buffs on turn 1 and 2 without doing anything else, like moving. Could have settled then cast the buffs if nothing else.

Ceresa settled on turn 3 and then had Meditation and a Workshop underway the next turn so not a bad effort there.

They all chose pretty much the best spot in the area to settle, but it just took a bit longer than it should. They all could have settled the spot they chose on the first turn. Seemed to get the same thing where on the first turn they cast a buff spell then that's all they do that turn.

Will try on Easy settings later.

Good post Poko8, hopefully Frogboy can get something from this.

Screen grab of Karavox on Turn 8:

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To play devil's advocate here for a second, how do you actually know that the cities are not constructing anything? Are you basing it on what it says on the worldview? I've not played around without Fog of War; is it possible to open up the city screen and see what has been built? Another thread has reported that while it looks like the AI isn't building anything from the worldview, in practice it's building something very quickly (the screen flickers). I think the suggestion was that it builds something in one turn and you get the flicker but then the city shows "No construction". If it's rushing, do you see anything happen to the amount of gold it has?

I can however personally confirm that the AI does leave its armies doing nothing sometimes, for no very obvious reason. In my current game I got the event (Blood Season?) which puts everyone at war with everyone, right when my best stack had just started a war and was on expedition. This was particularly tricky because there was a AI large stack, that previously had been neutral, wandering around on my borders. Blood season is declared, and now it's two tiles from an undefended city. It's only three tiles from my almost undefended capital, and I've used Freeze recently. Eeek. I sacrificed pretty much the entire population of the vulnerable city so I could cast Cloudwalk, but I'd miscalculated, and my best stack was in the city it had just taken, without any movement points left. So I was assuming I'd have to retake my city next turn.

Except... the AI stack did nothing. Now, I think it was two tiles away through forest, so I don't think it could have taken the city in one move. But even so, it didn't know I was going to cast Cloudwalk, and that city had absolutely zero defenders. It was a decent AI stack as well, there was no way the standard garrison was going to stop it. So it should have moved next to the city to attack the turn after. Or alternatively I could understand it going straight for my capital; or I could understand it sending the stack back to its own borders to defend itself against all the other nations it's suddenly at war with. But not to move at all...? Very strange.

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abob101

Join Date 11/2010

+49

Quoting merlinme,

reply 7

how do you actually know that the cities are not constructing anything? Are you basing it on what it says on the worldview?

If you use the cheats to turn off the fog of war you can open the AI city and see if they have built anything. They can't build anything in 1 turn in any case at that early stage of the game.

Strange thing is, i've just re-enabled mods and done a few more tests while i've been working on various things... and in the few occassions I checked what the AI was up to... they always starting building something straight away (although in some cases it still took a few turns to settle). So the "issue" seems to be a bit inconsistant in terms of when it appears. Or maybe it has something to do with the faction... because when I have mods on the tests were with custom Sov's. Will do some more tests.

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Thanks abob, I'm glad I'm not crazy

Merlinme, that's a good question, but, with no fog, I'd be able to see any new buildings or units that appear. When they do start building you immediately see one of those construction sites pop up.

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Fair enough, just checking. Certainly looks like a bug, if you can pin down under what circumstances it happens and what circumstances it doesn't happen, I'm sure it would be a great help to Frogboy and the team.

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Bump, since Frogboy said he'll be looking at Nick-Danger's AI thread today. Hoping he sees this one too.

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