Armor Nerf?

I've been thinking of posting about this as well. Plate especially seems plain awful now. Some time ago I was afraid to meet my greatest enemy Yithril on the battlefield... until I saw their troop roster. Their 'elite' units had full plate and mauls. Initiative of 8.

They were never able to even try hitting someone.

could you be more specific? i didn't notice a change to armor effciency in the 0.90 version of the game. works just fine in the scenario for me (haven't played a "sandbox" game with 0.90 rules yet)

Okay, so I have a 7th level hero with 50 hit points, attack 24 defense 26.  He fights 5 shrills and gets annihilated.

Shrills have an attack of 7.  So....that means that a defense value of 26, more than three times the value of the attacks, reduces the effectiveness of being attacked by about 40-60?  I honestly have no idea what armor actually does in the game (if it does anything, in fact).

The shrills were consistently hitting him for 3 damage apiece.  I assume there is some sort of bonus for swarming or flanking that's factoring in here, too. 

Considering his light plate armor costs like 2000 GP, what is the point?  Either defense needs to be made more effective our they need to reduce the cost armor considerably.  Personally, I'd like to see the defense value be made more effective. 

For the record, I'm aware I can go modify all the values if I wanted to.

Can anyone explain how the defense value works in LE?

I think the problem is swarming. Every unit around you adds to damage and accuracy. So all of them have a considerably higher attack than normal. I don't like swarming for that reason. It should be a special ability for some units or creatures and not work for everyone. Armor really has become pretty useless.

the formula is:

max damage = attack * (attack / (attack+defense)) 

min damage = 0.5 * max damage

that means they should be doing about 0.7 to 1.5 damage per swing from a single attacker

i think the problem in this scenario is the swarm bonus - every enemy unit that is adjacent to the defending unit adds +1 attack and +5 accuracy to the attack.

so 5 shrills in melee range of the hero boost each other from 7 to 12 attack; 

the result should be around 1.9 - 3.8 damage per swing (probably rounded to 2-4)

so yeah, that's pretty much working as intended. 

the problem really isn't the armor value, it's the fact that you tried to solo them. one major difference between between FE and LH is that it's a really bad idea to try and solo non-trivial fights.  

Swarming has become the new 'one trick pony' in Elemental.  While the concept of 'concentrating your fire on one opponent at a time' has been with us for many games before this one, Elemental strongly encourages you to place units around a chosen target, beat him to death, and THEN move on to the next target with Swarming.  I mean, you are stupid NOT TO swarm your opponent whenever you can.

Of course, this does expose some units to Counter Swarms, as the AI moves units to take full advantage of Swarm.  Sure, some weapons can counter swarms to a degree (read: axes), but this really oversimplifies combat a bit much.  It's an interesting tactical design, but THIS is a point where I start bitching about randomness, a lot, as I understand the underlying structure, and how much even a small boost in attack strength can skew the formulas, which, as far as I can tell, haven't changed much since the original E:WOM.  Sure the values have changed, but this is why several of us were actively seeking a better way/better values to balance units in combat even back then.

I'm waiting to see where E:LH settles out, and then I'll probably take another crack at combat balance.  As it stands right now, I still see a lot of cheese, and a lot of places where a smaller range of values would smooth things out considerably, instead of the OTT combat randomness I am still seeing.

Maul is another good example of this.  Whether or not your unit survives one, especially in the early-mid game, is a very random function.  More random than I would expect in a game supposedly focused on Strategic and design decisions.  but I digress...

Of course, some people just HATE multiple rounds of combat.  Hence the design decisions we have now.  However, when I just spent 12 or more seasons/game turns trying to get just one unit online, I tend to expect it to last at least one round in combat, and unfortunately am often disappointed...

Back on topic with the OP, yeah I do think the whole cost versus benefit thing needs a new look.  But this will fall to the modders at this point, I think, as LH is scheduled for release within the next two weeks.

Forger about armor. High initiative is the thing, since basically fights now are between glass cannons ...

Ah, I interpreted the OP wrong. This wasn't about how huge the initiative penalties for heavy armor are. Especially since they can trick the AI into producing units that look great on paper before you look at the init stat. Swarming has made the high init spear units even better than they used to be.

swarming is pretty irrelevant at the point of the game where units wear plate armor. at that point in the game, the problem is armor penetration and overpowered essence buffs. swarming has very little to do with that. 

Hrm.  So you can basically always bleed an enemy no matter what.  Interesting...I guess?  Seems like having high armor is an extreme waste of resources.  As mentioned, it's far better to simply have high init and get to go first. 

After taking a look at the numbers in excel, my instinct was correct.  The cost/benefit ratio for armor sucks. 

Agree that high initiative/dodge is the way to go, building units with armor is just not cost effective. With a good healer and commander, a group of dodgy spearmen can be pretty dern hard to kill.

Whether it's the benefits of armor need increasing, the costs associated need reduction, or maybe even the traits that support wearing/not wearing armor need tweaking, something seems out of whack.

What shrills were you fighting... Unless it was an earth shrill your plate is going to do nothing for you. The water shills have cold damage when they attack you, the air shrills have lightening damage when they attack you, and the fire shrills do fire damage when they attack you. Armor does nothing to help defend against elemental damage, this is partially why mage units with their staves are so leathal.

Armor has a decent effect on strikely piercing damage. Given that they were only hitting you for 3 damage that means it was only their elemental damage getting through. Whenever I attack an earth shrill with no magical damage it becomes a more difficult fight, but on the other hand with elemental damage... becomes much easier to kill.

Initiative seems pretty dysfunctional. Its really important to have a decent initiative, high initiative can be countered with defender units but even they need 14+ initiative.

Yithril especially needs to have reduced initiative penalties on armor. They like to build Oppressors with like 10 initiative (Full plate and Maces), they'd be threatening if they ever moved.

A good example of how bad some armor is: Chain Guantlets 2 defense -1 initiative. Thats right, they trade 1 extra defense (over leather gauntlets) for an initiative penalty of -1 and a metal cost. NO ONE SHOULD EVER EQUIP THESE EVER

I feel like I already had this problem a year ago.

actually, i tend to ignore chain and plate armor right now. the techs are still very valuable, since they unlock the higher tier shields. a defender unit with leather armor and tower shield can still get to about 60 defense while defending, that's not too shabby considering that it costs only about a third of the metal required for a suit of plate armor and it doesn't have an initiative penalty. swordsmen with best sword/ best shield finesse/ironskin/defensive are good enough as tanks, and also pretty decent in a semi-offensive role. with the final warfare tree items they have 22 init, 14 attack [17 vs. slower units], 60 defense while defending - not bad for a unit that only costs ~10 iron per figure