So trying out the game: First impressions & Bug reports

from Elemental Forums

I'm going to start right on out and say I never played the original, a friend of mine just got me a copy of legendary heroes and I've been playing the beta.

 

And to start off... its a really wonderful game! It has that perfect mix of Civilizations, HoM&M and some of its own unique elements!

 

However, I do feel like there are a couple of things nagging me that (i'm sure) are quite similar for others. As well as some minor bugs, I don't normally critique things but since I got a beta I figured I should at least help out somehow!.

 

-Leveling: Hero leveling feels very... slow. When I'm playing once I get 3-4 levels it feels like I've hit a brick wall. I can go around questing, killing, even soloing things with just my sovereign and never level up. Hell, one time I had it on easy and spent over 20k mana on experience for my hero and barely leveled up. In fact it was cheaper to use random stat boosts till I got 5 health, then paragon level myself instead! This really makes the entire 'leveling tree' thing a bit miffing since things like Defenders feel like they can never get the useful perks till much later.

 

-Mage combat: When using mages vs soldiers, I can almost find no reason to prefer mages of them. They seem to lack the 'ability' gameplay that most ability-based characters possess. Perhaps giving mages (Non-champion) mana-less cast time abilities could bring more dynamic play to the field vs some of the current things they have.

 

-The one faction with the lightning damage per level passive: Going off on a question here... why does this cost so much?

 

-Unrest: Unrest feels almost like a pointless mechanic. As I play the game it seems very simple to cancel out, especially if I expand slowly and make my first champion into an administrator. The only time it feels like an issue is when my city is cut off from the capital and is my 4th+ city.

 

-Cult of a Thousand Eyes & Shrine Units on warrior factions seems very ridiculous: These units don't have an upkeep, and give warrior factions a very easy way to field armies with mana despite having stiff penalties to it (Thinking of the faction with increased cost on tactical spells.) thus allowing for a stronger economy by being able to rush production without any upkeep.

 

-Champions are rare, why do they require wages? Given how slow things level I oftentimes end up making them all administrators and just using my sovereign. 

 

-Essence feels very strong, or perhaps its simply because of how I play. If I start a game and my starting base doesn't have at least two essences I feel like I just need to restart, its such a huge weakness not to have (even lategame!) that I don't know how I feel about it. Even on a fortress having 4 essence can allow you to enchant it to give all units +4 defense +4 attack when built there as well as +4 material to allow for almost instantly built armies (Arcane forge). Throw in the rain growth from a water mage administrator and you can use the sacrifical pit in the same city without penalty!

 

-By mixing the mages on my team, and hunting every shrine I could, I was able to field a full army of elemental with a hero that had every single maintained enchantment (from the halo that I picked as a trait), of which with him being an axe-using warrior led to him soloing even strong rated groups at times.

 

-Death Worship + a few weak enemies + shrine units = nigh unstoppable early game army with 2-3 shrines and a few easy battles.

 

-Given the difficulty at raising population, 1 mana per population on sacrifice seems 'very' weak. Perhaps 2-3 mana might be a bit more reasonable.

 

-Is it really necessary for fallen star to scale so well with fire shards? I got lucky one game and had 3 of them, I was just sniping armies all around the map each turn because I had 3 cities with 5 essence and mana generation from hell.

 

-Selling items: I tried selling things at the shop, and had around 30 wolf pelts. This is pretty cool, but has it been considered changing what you get based on where you sell? Selling spider's silk at a conclave giving mana, while giving gildar (+5) at a town, and (+3) at a fortress. Make the game have a little more variation to where you sell at!

 

-Scouts: Could these units be immune to monster attacks? I feel like they're worthless for scouting since they get anywhere near monsters (Pretty much anywhere), and get killed.

 

-What is a squad and a company?

 

-Given the difficulty of leveling up in the game, why does it feel like summoner characters are broken? I made one and around midgame I was running around with level 14 pets slaughtering everyone without a care in the world. (And the AI derps with skeleton horde and ignores the rest of your army).

 

 

 

 

 

 

These are just a few things I've mentioned. As I've said I'm still a bit new to this, and tinkering with a few combos and characters I'm making. Some factions seem significantly more powerful than others (The one that gets stats from shrines seems very weak given how small the boost really is even after some massive shrine control.) But... this is a beta so such things are expected! I'll be writing up a bug report here soon as I play a bit more, see what I can and can't recreate.

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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

-Leveling: Hero leveling feels very... slow. When I'm playing once I get 3-4 levels it feels like I've hit a brick wall. I can go around questing, killing, even soloing things with just my sovereign and never level up. Hell, one time I had it on easy and spent over 20k mana on experience for my hero and barely leveled up. In fact it was cheaper to use random stat boosts till I got 5 health, then paragon level myself instead! This really makes the entire 'leveling tree' thing a bit miffing since things like Defenders feel like they can never get the useful perks till much later.
End of quote

Even though this is easily one of the most talked-about and unsatisfactory things going around on the forums, I have to admit that I've never thought of solving the experience problem quite like that. Using random stat boosts till you gain 5 health and then using paragon? Genius.

-The one faction with the lightning damage per level passive: Going off on a question here... why does this cost so much?
End of quote

Why does this cost so much? Nobody knows. But yes, it effectively reduces its usefulness to approximately zero. I suspect the high mana cost is to offset the fact that if it were free, like most other faction abilities, it would be too powerful in comparison, even though I'm not actually convinced that's even true.

-Unrest: Unrest feels almost like a pointless mechanic. As I play the game it seems very simple to cancel out, especially if I expand slowly and make my first champion into an administrator. The only time it feels like an issue is when my city is cut off from the capital and is my 4th+ city.
End of quote

I have to disagree here. Unrest has actually come a long way as a mechanic. Nowadays, with the city count unrest penalty, it's hard to expand rapidly. The key point of what you said is  "if I expand slowly" - that's what unrest is intended to do, stop the city spam that was rampant in FE and early LH. Also, making your first champion an administrator tree commander is one of the things I hate having to do, though playing as Tarth it's hard to get anywhere unless I do that... Also, fighting battles with an administrator to level them up just isn't my cup of tea.

-Champions are rare, why do they require wages? Given how slow things level I oftentimes end up making them all administrators and just using my sovereign. 
End of quote

Yep. They're oftentimes largely pointless. Again, an issue much-discussed on this forum. It's unfortunate, because the game is titled "Legendary Heroes" and going around with armies headed by desk jockeys and bureaucrats really doesn't scream out "Legendary" to me.

-Essence feels very strong, or perhaps its simply because of how I play. If I start a game and my starting base doesn't have at least two essences I feel like I just need to restart, its such a huge weakness not to have (even lategame!) that I don't know how I feel about it. Even on a fortress having 4 essence can allow you to enchant it to give all units +4 defense +4 attack when built there as well as +4 material to allow for almost instantly built armies (Arcane forge). Throw in the rain growth from a water mage administrator and you can use the sacrifical pit in the same city without penalty!
End of quote

Essence *is* overpowered. You're right! Next.

-Selling items: I tried selling things at the shop, and had around 30 wolf pelts. This is pretty cool, but has it been considered changing what you get based on where you sell? Selling spider's silk at a conclave giving mana, while giving gildar (+5) at a town, and (+3) at a fortress. Make the game have a little more variation to where you sell at!
End of quote

Ooh, this is a nice idea. Having the location where you sell things change what you get for them is interesting. Of course, and I think this has also been suggested before, it would be great to extend the same level of uniqueness to what you can buy as well, giving each city type and each faction special items that can only be bought at certain locations. Currently, you just wander into whatever player territory you can find and sell all your things (shortly before they demand you leave their territory or prepare for war).

-Scouts: Could these units be immune to monster attacks? I feel like they're worthless for scouting since they get anywhere near monsters (Pretty much anywhere), and get killed.
End of quote

It's not just scouts - I think a lot of the problem is exploring without an army requires a lot of micromanagement because the "Explore" toggle results in your unit walking into monsters and dying. I almost never build scout units because of this, and just use whatever terrible hero I get first to be a sacrificial scout. That way I can mount them too!

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting animageous, reply 1
Essence *is* overpowered. You're right! Next.
End of animageous's quote

I think that essence is not overpowered, but the distribution is annoying for the player and the AI. EVERY city tile should have 1 essence (25 %), 2 essence (50 %) or 3 essence (25 %).

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wizard1200, reply 2


Quoting animageous, reply 1Essence *is* overpowered. You're right! Next.

I think that essence is not overpowered, but the distribution is annoying for the player and the AI. EVERY city tile should have 1 essence (25 %), 2 essence (50 %) or 3 essence (25 %).
End of Wizard1200's quote

 

I would like to see every city (or at least the capitol of your nation) have an additional option for +1 essence at city level up like conclaves do now at level 3.  I mean, does anyone take anything else at Conclave level 3?  Ever?   

 

Great idea about trading loot for mana... would love to see neutral trading posts on the map that offered different items or metal or crystal or let you gamble for magic items.  That would be fun.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting animageous, reply 1



I have to disagree here. Unrest has actually come a long way as a mechanic. Nowadays, with the city count unrest penalty, it's hard to expand rapidly. The key point of what you said is  "if I expand slowly" - that's what unrest is intended to do, stop the city spam that was rampant in FE and early LH. Also, making your first champion an administrator tree commander is one of the things I hate having to do, though playing as Tarth it's hard to get anywhere unless I do that... Also, fighting battles with an administrator to level them up just isn't my cup of tea.


End of animageous's quote

Ok, now what for would you ever need to expand quickly ? I am starting with conclave, then settling town, then fortress and the other town for extra money. 4 cities can give you everything you need. You can even grab unrest ignorance spec when they levelup a bit, if you feel you have to, but with 4 cities yo wont.

If got in war - raze everything and cover with outposts to stop AI's pioners, thats all. Never used administrators, just waste of time.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NaytchSG, reply 3
I would like to see every city (or at least the capitol of your nation) have an additional option for +1 essence at city level up like conclaves do now at level 3.  I mean, does anyone take anything else at Conclave level 3?  Ever?
End of NaytchSG's quote

I do! I take the +20% research option when my heroes don't have enough spell schools or spell levels to make extra essence worthwhile, and I want that little bit extra on one of my conclaves just to get my research going stronger as the game progresses.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Just a few more observations here! I've recently come to the conclusion that a mage soveriegn is utterly, completely broken if you get the -1 cast time on them and maintain the rank 3 water spell + no mana cost on enchantments on them as a warlock. I was literally killing dragons with just my soverign simply because I could spam fireball/gust of wind indefinitely with no cast time.

 

 

Also, the 'binding' perk is still unbelievably broken! The fact the units are replaced (for free!) and you get three as you rank up the things allows me to play almost entirely without the warfare tree at all. I simply use them to go offensive and utilize minor base defenses to control the map.

 

It gets even worse with the perk that lets you get arcane monoliths, since if you can mass mana you can pop down monoliths to give vision of the entire map, and capture the shrines early to build up your army (And subsequently more mana, more shards, and a more god-like soverign. It synergizes to an almost terrifying level.)

 

-Why are random events so Bad? I had one that causes monsters to spawn EVERYWHERE and wipe out 4 of the AI and almost all of my bases. How the hell is one supposed to fight giant spiders before you even finish your second building in your second city?

-Food seems fairly crippling on fortresses and Conclaves pretty early on. I oftentimes find the rain spell from a mage is mandatory on these to get them beyond level 3 (at least until I have a level 4+town and extensive food based research). Its a bit akward to have a level 1 first city and 2 level 5 towns simply because I started conclave.

-Why do mage soverigns have no level 1 'offensive' ability? It feels a bit odd not having a fire bolt, or water bolt, or earth bolt to actually use early game. Most damage abilities are far in the trees or require melee range. It makes the initial 'fighting' a bit rough to leveling one.

 

 

Sorry that there are still no bug reports... I've been lazy :P

 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

The problem is mage heroes, especially sovs, have a power curve a lot like an old school D&D wizard. Basically at low levels they are pretty useless in combat, mine tend to sit back and plunk away with a bow, maybe doe some hasting or slowing, etc. At around the time the get fireball, they get to be kind of useful, but honestly they most likely don't have the perks to make fireball that good yet, unless they are a warlock sov. and since combat goes so fast often times fireball isn't worth it. Then you get to like lvl ten, you unlock the quicker casting, you've got the good damage spells, you've got good, init and suddenly out of the blue you a GOD OF DEATH. You cast fireball for like 200 damage, every turn, or if you have death magic, you cast kill ever other turn, or any of the awesome death spells, basically you go from super weak to overpowered in one jump. Theres not really a lot of middle ground. 

 

Also arcane monoliths are amazing, they are one of the best things in the game, both because of how good the are, but also because they are one of the few perks that actually changes how you play the game, I wish every perk was like them. However its very sad that I've never once seen the AI use them, it would help it a lot.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I think the scariest thing I've had so far (with a curve of course) was a full statted up defender with the 42 attack 2h sword. It was scarily powerful in that anyone hitting him in melee he just killed with a counterattack, and he was damned near indestructable since he could use heal.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting animageous, reply 5


Quoting NaytchSG, reply 3I would like to see every city (or at least the capitol of your nation) have an additional option for +1 essence at city level up like conclaves do now at level 3.  I mean, does anyone take anything else at Conclave level 3?  Ever?

I do! I take the +20% research option when my heroes don't have enough spell schools or spell levels to make extra essence worthwhile, and I want that little bit extra on one of my conclaves just to get my research going stronger as the game progresses.
End of animageous's quote

 

Hmm.  Ok. I usually find it easier to build a few buildings and get the same level of bonus.  Of course, I go out of my way to hire heroes with different spell schools than my sov so I have a little bit of everything.  I retract my blanket statement, but will maintain that more essence for at least your capitol is more fun.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Antermosiph, reply 8

I think the scariest thing I've had so far (with a curve of course) was a full statted up defender with the 42 attack 2h sword. It was scarily powerful in that anyone hitting him in melee he just killed with a counterattack, and he was damned near indestructable since he could use heal.
End of Antermosiph's quote

So you're saying the heroes are legendary then?

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 10


Quoting Antermosiph, reply 8
I think the scariest thing I've had so far (with a curve of course) was a full statted up defender with the 42 attack 2h sword. It was scarily powerful in that anyone hitting him in melee he just killed with a counterattack, and he was damned near indestructable since he could use heal.

So you're saying the heroes are legendary then?
End of mqpiffle's quote

 

I don't think its heroes that are legendary, its a couple of weapons that are, any of the 42 attack weapons give you a massive jump in power. For me its normally a jump of going form like a 20 attack sword to a 42 attack sword, its going to make ANY hero pretty deadly, jumping them from meh to AWESOME, and really the hero doesn't matter much, I've had a lvl 5 henchman with that sword kill Dragons.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NaytchSG, reply 9
Hmm.  Ok. I usually find it easier to build a few buildings and get the same level of bonus.  Of course, I go out of my way to hire heroes with different spell schools than my sov so I have a little bit of everything.  I retract my blanket statement, but will maintain that more essence for at least your capitol is more fun.
End of NaytchSG's quote

Yeah, I tend to end up with a mix of heroes that don't really cover all that many spell schools, usually only maxing out one or two (one with my sov, one with a random hero I find wandering around), so I don't tend to get that many city enchantments going. It's actually struck me as odd that city enchantments don't require the upkeep that unit enchantments do, considering their effects are, on the whole, much more powerful. I mean, at the moment, there is no downside whatsoever to just whacking everything you can on a city, all the time.

Sure, meditation shouldn't cost upkeep, but I think everything else should. Just saying.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 10
So you're saying the heroes are legendary then?
End of mqpiffle's quote

I don't think so. That would be a bit of an extreme and unreasonable conclusion to jump to.