[LH][Sug] Adrenaline in Tactical Combat

from Elemental Forums

One of the biggest reasons tactical combat goes so fast and initiative is so important is the advantage in unleashing all your special abilities first. The ability to use all you abilities at once on the first turn is a problem because it can be easily abused. Think of berserking or rushing all your units all at once to cross the map and rip apart enemy formations.

My solution is to add a tactical resource called Adrenaline. Similar to Mana all your units would share one pool of Adrenaline, which would disappear after combat. Instead of the only cost of special abilities being cooldowns warrior and troop abilities would cost Adrenaline. At the start of combat you have no Adrenaline and every turn you would get a bit. Different systems are possible, either you could get it automatically every turn or when you deal and take damage.

This would make special abilities much easier to balance and differentiate as they could have different costs, and it would prevent players from spamming them all on the first turn. No more rushing across the map with every unit as Altar. It would also add a lot of depth as you could then add traits that create Adrenaline in different ways and super powerful warrior attacks that cost a ton.

12,152 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes, this seems like a good idea. Would really help balance tactical combat and add a new layer of complexity to tactics and unit/champion design.

Rush/charge and cleave/impale is a OP combination, allowing way too much damage first turn. Berserk also seems OP, especially if I can ever get Verga to stop casting wither when I berserk him.

One reason I really hate the removal of encumbrance is it simplifying unit design so much (Just get armor trait and add all pieces of armor, instead of balancing weight and the removal of 2 traits). So almost anything that adds new traits and tactics is great.

Reply #2 from Stardock Forums Top

In my opinion, this is a bad idea.  You're trying to address the "whoever moves first wins" problem (which is only a problem if you already have an overwhelming force at your disposal).

There's no need for a new mechanic in the game, especially something so weird, when all that is required is balance.  Weapon damage needs a nerf, HP needs a buff (especially champs).  If you did that charge/cleave wouldn't wipe out the entire opposition and would leave your units right in the teeth of the enemy's swarm which is exactly the tradeoff charge is supposed to present.

It would also help if the AI could field decent armies.

If I had my druthers they'd add more tactical options to the game.  Swarm defense (so having units beside you, reduces the swarm attack bonus).  Surge (which moves the unit through 2+ empty tiles, striking enemy units on both sides).  Swap (which switches places with an enemy unit across from you).

More tactical opportunities equals more excellent goodness.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 2
There's no need for a new mechanic in the game, especially something so weird, when all that is required is balance. Weapon damage needs a nerf, HP needs a buff (especially champs). If you did that charge/cleave wouldn't wipe out the entire opposition and would leave your units right in the teeth of the enemy's swarm which is exactly the tradeoff charge is supposed to present.
End of sweatyboatman's quote

True a lot of abilities could be balanced through just moving some numbers around but there are still challenges. Firstly you can't really change Rush or Berserk too much. When used correctly rush is very powerful and as a racial ability all of your units get it. The double movement when used at the start of the game basically guarantees you first strike for your entire army, or allows you to slip through enemy ZoC. Secondly without some sort of opportunity cost it is hard to balance abilities versus normal attacks. Since abilities are essentially free and by definition better then normal attacks you will always want to use them as soon as possible. Thirdly having no cost makes it impossible to have combat abilities that vary in strength, every ability costs the same so they have to all be the same strength. Thus we have no big warrior abilities only slight variations on normal attacks, even though it would be nice for warriors to have some big flashy moves. Also the system is far from weird. Many RPGs use a similar system for warrior heroes as a substitute for mana, for all the reasons listed above. Guild Wars is one example.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 3
Also the system is far from weird. Many RPGs use a similar system for warrior heroes as a substitute for mana, for all the reasons listed above. Guild Wars is one example.
End of DsRaider's quote

What's weird about it is that adrenaline is shared amongst the army.  That's pretty counter-intuitive to my mind.  I wouldn't expect that using shield bash would disable my other units abilities. It's also pretty easy to game.  You have fodder units that you bring to the front and have them absorb damage.  Once your adrenaline meter is up high enough, bring your OP mounter troops in and cleave away!

I guess it would be less weird if each unit got its own adrenaline meter, but then you that doesn't really address the problem of "first-strike-wins" anymore.  And frankly I don't get why I wouldn't want to be able to use my best abilities at the start of the battle.  Why do I have to wait for the enemy to beat my guys up to use them?

Frankly I don't see the need for such a mechanic when the issue here is one single skill "Charge" being too powerful.

Quoting DsRaider, reply 3
Secondly without some sort of opportunity cost it is hard to balance abilities versus normal attacks. Since abilities are essentially free and by definition better then normal attacks you will always want to use them as soon as possible.
End of DsRaider's quote

Yes.  And this is the part of your argument that bugs me the most.  Special attacks are better than regular attacks, so you want to make it so that you cannot use special attacks.  Why?  Because it hurts regular attacks feelings?

Quoting DsRaider, reply 3
The double movement when used at the start of the game basically guarantees you first strike for your entire army
End of DsRaider's quote

The problem you're detailing is that getting first strike is too effective because it allows you to wipe out the enemy before he can respond.  If you nerfed weapon damage (as has been discussed elsewhere) the result is that your charging units do not wipe out the opposing army on the first strike.  That means you can easily nerf charge (if you must) just by giving it a stun.  If they attack after charging, they lose their next turn.  Imagine how much fun it would be for those lightly armored spear-wielding troops to stand in for two rounds against the swarming attack of the enemy's front line.

 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sweatyboatman, reply 4
The problem you're detailing is that getting first strike is too effective because it allows you to wipe out the enemy before he can respond.  If you nerfed weapon damage (as has been discussed elsewhere) the result is that your charging units do not wipe out the opposing army on the first strike.  That means you can easily nerf charge (if you must) just by giving it a stun.  If they attack after charging, they lose their next turn.  Imagine how much fun it would be for those lightly armored spear-wielding troops to stand in for two rounds against the swarming attack of the enemy's front line.
End of sweatyboatman's quote

I'm rather new around here, and haven't seen these suggestions before, but I like the general idea. Nerfing damage means more attacks needed to kill an enemy, and thus even powerful skills could exist, as they may not insta-kill opponents, and might also come with drawbacks if you try, like a stun. If the skills were still powerful enough to insta-kill, then you'd probably be steamrolling against an inferior opponent anyways, so it wouldn't really matter.

 

The reasons I don't like OP's Adrenaline suggestion are that it limits usage too much. Right now you have a theoretical choice of when to use the skills, be it on first attack, or as finisher or whatever, but with adrenaline in place you'd be disallowed the use in the start of the battle, and be forced to use the skills later on, and even then according to how your adrenaline happens to fill up. I would much rather have special attacks usable whenever I desire, but either with consequences (eg. powerful attack with stun), or as alternative attack methods (eg. instead of 100% damage on one tile, do 33.3% on three tiles). The latter type of ability could also be usable every turn, since it merely distributes damage differently, adding more tactical options, rather than more raw power.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top


As long the biggest problem seems rush, then why not to give it:

1. To ythrill (because they cant have ranged units), rush looks best fitted for them.  Their jugs cant mount and has 2 intial movement. Rush looks nice fitted to them.

2. You can give some penalty for using strong skill like rush. Like if you rush then you lose accuracy for example, because in haste you are not well prepaired and cant hit that well. Or lose 25 perc of damage, because after rush you had less strength to perform an atack - you got tired ?

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top


What about giving each unit a random "cool down counter" at the begining fo the combat? So, if a unit has a 3 turns cool down instead of starting always at turn 0 the unit would start at a random place between 3 and 0. In the worst case the unit would need to wait the full cool down cycle and in the best case the ability would be ready to use.