[0.80] Encumbrance first impressions

enchanted backpack is +1 init.  I'd suggest changing that to +2 accessories that can be carried (for a net +1)

You made a good point on the mace: my suggestion would be to make some heavy weapons require chain mastery or even plate mastery

Another idea: for non-hero troops, why not just get rid of individual pieces of armor, and just go leather/chain/plate?

I have to agree overall I'm not currently thinking it's a better system, though I can be convinced otherwise (too early to tell)  Much like the new hero trait system, it needs work.

That said, there may be enough things I don't like about LH that I may consider FE a better game if they are not improved.

Agreed. By removing encumbrance, SD had removed one of the main equipment balances in the game. To offset this, weapons especially need to be associated with their new equipment balance mechanic: proficiencies.

For Procipenee to walk around with a heavy mace....well, that's just a joke.

it's not really fleshed out yet. i mean, it's very likely that the traits will be adjusted (doesn't make sense to have a trait that costs 4 production for 1 att, another trait for 12 productions also adds 1 att and a third trait that costs 6 prod for +1 att and -1 HP)

what i already like about the new system is that it makes foot soldiers more useful. cavalry is still better since they still get extra movement, but in the old encumbrance system, you pretty much had to put your guys on horses for the +20 weight cap alone. and the new system kinda forces you to weigh offense vs. defense in late game unit designs. it was pretty trivial in the encumbrance system to design chain units with no init penalty and even (almost) full plate units at 80 encumbrance (-2 init). now you have to pick - better protection or more initiative.

i guess the effects of weapon weight could be re-introduced with adjusted initiative values on the very light/heavy weapons - an additional +1 for weapons with 0 or 5 weight in the old system and an additonal -1 or -2 for the super heavy weapons (20/25 weight) or something along that line.

Idea:

Introduce weight classes to weapons: None, Light, Heavy, Epic

Anyone can use None.

Strength unlocks Light in the General tree.

Warriors automatically get Heavy.  Epic unlocks midway up their tree with another trait.

Defenders have the Muscle trait early-mid in their tree which unlocks Heavy.

I like the above idea. (Light/Medium/Heavy would work)

Things like the Stone Mace should be Heaviest

Things like Pikes, Burning Battle Axes should be Medium (alongside most shields)

Broadsword, Spear, Hand Axe would be light.

Daggers and Staff would be none

Maybe an Earth Spell could give the ability to wield heavier weapons.

Yes, i think that the Pathfinder roleplaying game is a very good example of weapon and armor proficiencies:

Light Weapons: Bow, Dagger, Staff and Sword

Heavy Weapons: Axe, Crossbow, Maul and Spear (-3 initiative)

Leather Armor

Chain Mail (-3 initiative)

Plate Mail (-3 initiative)

Leather Armor: -1 initiative and -10 dodge for a full set

Chain Mail: -3 initiative and -20 dodge for a full set

Plate Mail: -5 initiative and -30 dodge for a full set

All proficiencies are in the general tree

Assassin: Automatically gets Light Weapons and Leather Armor

Commander: Automatically gets Heavy Weapons and Chain Mail

Defender: Automatically gets Heavy Weapons and Plate Mail

Mage: Automatically gets Light Weapons and Leather Armor

Warrior: Automatically gets Heavy Weapons and Chain Mail

I feel like the changes made heroes even weaker than they were... Although i do like the changes.

I lost all visibility to encumbrance, but swear my sov is still suffering -2 init from it - but I can't see how to tell when an item pushes me over.

After playing a huge map all day I  got used to the new way and I really enjoy the greater variety between classes. I don't agree that the huge mace is unbalanced now, it still has the init penalty just like heavy armours. Inin the end this system feels more streamlined and lets me design units and equip heroes a little quicker, and with a little less hassle, the loss of complexity due to figuring out which pieces of gear I can equip isn't great.

I like some facets of the new system but other parts are kinda off. I like it because it is easy to understand and you don't end up giving every unit strength. It also makes champions more unique, differentiates classes, and makes troop upgrading simpler.

The first problem is that now there is no reason not to use full leather all the time. Before there were reasons to design units with only 1 or 2 pieces but not now. Currently you may as well make leather a starting tech because you get it so fast anyway and there is no reason to ever not use it. Every single unit in the game should have it. Also there is no penalty for shields so you should always get them. This is another rather large flaw. The current system is still abusable. For instance not all chain pieces have penalties so you can design units with mixed leather and chain to get high defense with no penalty. Lastly, there is no way to have strong units like Trogs.

Solution: A Hybrid System that is simple an easy to understand.

• Bring back encumbrance but make it apply only to armor. Not shields and weapons.
• Give shields an initiative penalty.
• Remove the initiative penalties on armor and instead switch it so encumbrance applies the same penalties.
• Have encumbrance set up so 3 pieces of leather have no penalty but beyond that it has -1.
• Give Trogs, Defenders, and Warriors a boost to weight capacity, that reduces initiative penalties by 1 or 2. 
• Remove the muscle trait and keep strength as +1 attack. They are unnecessary and complicate unit design. 

This will keep all the strengths of the new system but eliminate the weaknesses and still allow for some of the depth of the old.

I think if all armors would have an initiative penalty and a dodge penalty it would be easier to assign different values to different pieces:

Leather Armor: -1 initiative and -10 dodge for a full set

Chain Mail: -3 initiative and -20 dodge for a full set

Plate Mail: -5 initiative and -30 dodge for a full set

I think it is very important to move the armor (and weapon) proficiencies to the general tree, because they increase the length of the path trees too much and make them less interesting.

I miss Encumbrance, and want it back. Instead of the 40 / 80 cutoffs, it should just be each 10% of weight takes off 1 initiative. 

The horses giving encumbrance relief was always a bit silly, and that could be changed, but that doesn't make encumbrance broken.

My thoughts exactly.  I would have thought that would have achieved a good outcome and would have been way less work than going down the current path.

I have to agree with this^ why are they continuing to dumb the game down?

Game feels much shallower. I end up loading units up with all kinds of items now without worrying about weight. Swordsmen/Hammermen always have shields and we get horrible mishmash of chain and leather because only some pieces have the encumbrance penalties. Races, units, items all feel terrible.

Also with strength and muscle giving +attack, damage is once again too high. First strike is more important than ever and with unlimited horses/wargs we can strike first and decimate armies before they can strike back.

Encumbrance penalties per armor piece were a horrible system when they were previously implemented and they still are. It feels so disheartening that after all the balancing and evolving the elemental system has undergone we are now stepping backwards so much. This new system comes with a ton of bugs and exploits that negatively affect the game, that realistically I don't think we will ever be free of and will waste tons of time better spent on other things.

I agree that the past system could use a bit of improve, but that was exactly what needed, improvement, not removal.

I think that the new system will be much better IF the paths, spells, traits, weapons, armors and items are overhauled. This overhaul is very much needed, because there are many balance problems:

- strength AND muscle are redundant

- armor pieces have the same defense, but different gold costs

- armor pieces have different defense, but no initiative penalty

- impulsive trait is overpowered and should be replaced by graceful

- defense should be slightly more powerful

- path trees are too long

- general tree has not enough traits

- cooldowns of the abilities are too long and should be reduced to 3 turns

- bows and staves need weapon abilities

- professions have different power levels (bandit lord vs. warlock)

- traits have different power levels (discipline vs. veteran)

- acrobat trait is useless for units, because they level very slow

- ...

I agree that an overhaul would solve most of the current problems with encumberance.  The idea just needs to be more thought out, it's not bad.

I have to agree that the removal of the encumbrance system and the current implementation of the armor proficiency traits does not make the game better or more fun, it does feel shallower now and the item management took a huge hit. As soon as you are able to you simply slap on all the different armor pieces of one type, which defeats the entire idea of having different pieces in the first place.

I personally never really understood the reasoning behind games that use proficiency like Legendary Heroes currently does, as in if you reach a certain level you can magically wear everything, but until then you cannot wear anything. I mean, everyone should be able to use all weapons and armor types if they are researched (with level requirements as a plausible limiter), the underlying limiting factor should be something like weight and impede on movement, accuracy etc.

I guess increasing the base initiative to 100 would make it easier to balance the armor pieces. The two initiative traits of the general tree should be removed and replaced by a single initiative trait.

This.

The current initiative system always has been and always will be way too coarse.  I personally would prefer to see the encumbrance system than this current system.

The weight system makes sense and feels more rpg-ish than having raw initiative modifying numbers.

Make the system simple:

For each % point of total weight/weight capacity, lower initiative and dodge by the same %.

Bows require some strength to use so give them a weight balanced with the initiative penalty you want to achieve.

^ I agree too. The main flaw of the FE encumbrance system is having only 2 points at which it has some effect (40% and 80%) If the effect is for each % as mqpiffle says, it becomes much more meaningful and the game is way deeper.

...and only champions and Trogs should have encumbrance bonuses. Absolutely no unit design traits that increase weight capacity.

I don't know if I agree with that.  However if there is a unit trait for strength, they need to up the labor cost quite a bit.