Elemental Forums
For those of you who have played a lot of FE, how are you feeling about v1.2? We put quite a bit of time and effort into making the AI smarter. Are you seeing a difference?
I haven't played a TON of v1.2 FE yet. I'm up at work and have a game going right now where I put an hour or two in a night before bed. I'm a little over 100 turns in and am liking it so far. I was exploring with my sov and found Gilden territory (playing Altar). As far a power rating goes he's only 2 or 3 points ahead of me (playing on challenging). After a couple turns he decided I must be put down. Haven't got much farther than that yet but will be interesting to see what happens. It's been a pretty un-productive night so far at work as I'm thinking what I'm going to do in the game hehe
Well, I got my ass handed to me the first time I tried playing on hard/hard, and that hasn't happened since the beta. Some 'first impression' points:
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that 1.3 will see a lot of diplomacy love; the game really needs it.
May I suggest adding a feature where if you have 4 cities in a box shape arrangement, have the cities connect to each other in a circle fashion, rather than a U fashion
Basically, currently the roads will never loop between cities, even if an obvious path is easily seen.
Too often will I get a 4th-ish city near my first one, but in order for me to travel from #4 to #1, I have to go through a looong detour through #2, and 3...
Definitely see a difference.
Kind of funny story about why I noticed this in the first place.
I had downloaded FE on to my laptop originally because turn based games are best for lower end systems like laptops + I can only play non-online games when I travel...
When I did finally load FE on my desktop I guess I never saw update 1.2 presumably because I did not have auto login feature enabled.
Apparently the first couple of weeks of messing about with FE was build 1.12 {unbeknownst to me}. Tried a few things in-game, and made my first custom Factions + Custom Sovereigns to try to complete a full game {w/ the intention of seeing Town building + unit building progressions and game play details first hand}...
The AI was not what I was expecting from a StarDock game at all. Granted, I picked Conquest Win only so I could investigate the End-Game Quest w/o having to worry about competing factions. I only had 2 opponents selected {Tarthans and Amarians}.
Pretty much even after a few hundred turns, the Enemy Sovereigns were not doing anything seriously constructive. They had nice Cities I'll give them that. Conquering the cities was trivial as was swatting the stationary Sovereigns. Game progressed as I thought it would. I backed Tarthans in to a corner and left them to idle so I could unlock all tech/civ/warfare trees + pursue Sion designs, etc. after liberating the Amarians from the Matriarchy of Queen Procipinee. The Queen evidently forgot her Wizard's Hat because she cast no spells while defending herself and had little in the way of defence or offence. Tarthans were much the same, though their Archers were not too shabby.
Took a break at that point to take a look at Forums, etc. At some point I realized I was playing build 1.12 and loaded up a new game w/ patch 1.2. Fired up a game with Relias at the helm so I could look at the henchmen abilities, etc. I started up Wildlands map on challenging as my previous game was so easy on Hard I did not think this would be much harder. I think you guys dropped the proverbial Hammer in 1.2 because I got my head handed to me in a box. The first actual indication of improved AI was while fighting 3 groups of wildlings I think it was. The Wildling warrior got low on health and....retreated! I was shocked. Previous games the AI inevitably marched forward predictably and could be kited, focused easily on to a Tank type defence unit, etc. The AI seems to be behaving more ruthlessly now, in tactical and strategic maps. Relias has since retreated back to his homeland to nurse a near fatal wound. A new Hero will have to be born to make the perilous foray in to the New World, called Onponttoo!
Hope this helps, but I doubt it will see light of day.
The road looping thing, cities do need to connect to each other when cities are formed. I really think road building should be changed heavily in the expansion, but that's another topic. 0
The AI does seem to be stronger now, it's still beatable on fair setting for me, but it's a legitimate challenge, but I don't feel boxed into a particular playstyle to beat it.
Sometimes units retreat in tactical battles when it doesn't seem to make sense. Tactical AI is still the weakest point, but it's competent enough.
Being a player of huge maps (mod) and many AIs (up to 28, usually 20) I would like to see the problem with the AIs accumulating massive amounts of research points fixed. I usually make it about 4 into the game, doing well with allies, recieving tributes, etc. and then I am hit with enemies that I cannot compete against technology-wise.
1. Expert now has some challenge to it, before it didn't have much so I previously played mostly on ridiculous.
2. I'll chime in w the above comment about road building. It is incredibly annoying to have to make huge loops around the 'U' shaped road system. This can be counteracted some with a governor hero who has road building, but I'll be honest and say I am not at all sure how the road building skill works. Sometimes it seems to magically do what I want, most of the time I press the button and nothing happens.
3. Monsters seem to still be too passive. In my current game the AI walked up and planted a town one square away from a dragon lair. The dragon got up and wandered off, instead of demolishing the town. I would like to see displaced monsters become much more aggressive than they are now, after all they are refugees, forced from their homes. Traditionally such entities become extremely angry and warlike and I think those tendencies need some tuning.
Yesterday I had quite a big chunk of map for myself only because there was only one passage into territory.
Now funny thing - Magnar was on the south "island" and I blocked him with scout unit in that passage. So he couldnt enter it. He literally was standing in place for 200 turns until I moved.
Im not so sure but he probably wanted to pick up champion that was on my territory (as I was playing kingdom so there was no use for me of empire champion)
That was terrible game breaker - now Im quite sure AI knows where are champions and goes straight for them so thats why it does always have 2x more champions than me :/
I was under the impression that this was fixed?
From 1.20 changelog: "Fixed bug where AI knowledge trading didn't always reduce tradeable knowledge"
If it's an ongoing issue in 1.20, I've heard an easy XML fix can remedy this problem. It is reply #22:
https://forums.elementalgame.com/437745
Note that you may still want to make a modification even if 1.20's changes corrected the tech trade bug. It's feasible that even without the tech trade bug the AI's tech trading amongst itself accelerates tech to unreasonable levels. There is also the possibility that the trade knowledge variable is 100 times higher (10 times versus .10) as some of the posters mentioned as well.
The developers should consider allowing tech trading to be disabled much as it can be disabled in Galactic Civilizations. As of now, this can theoretically be done by modifying the variable to 0 through the XML modification mentioned earlier.
I haven't been motivated to play for a while now, so I don't know firsthand if this has been fixed in 1.20. It was definitely an issue in 1.12 however.
Also, is 28 factions the limit for you too? If I go any higher the game crashes on initiation. I am counting the player faction amongst the 28, so 27 opponent factions is my limit.
I've had similar experiences with the AI of Sovereigns/Champions, though this is 1.12.
Another thing you might want to try is camping loot with a non-champion/sovereign unit. Last time I did that the Sovereign idled for over 50 turns... The AI was patiently waiting for my Explorer to move so it could claim some random bear loot.
It doesn't bug me too much though, as I generally refrain from immersion breaking exploits. If this is a consistent issue it may be worth noting though.
I have to play a few more times; however, in a recent game AI archers were targeting my mounted Champion (equipped with that blue belt) who was dodging all attacks while ignoring the GraveWardens that were devasting their ranks with blasts from their fire-staffs.
If the Human player is using Gravewardens with firestaffs, I would like to see the AI adopt a counter strategy such as;
1) cloaks of fire resistance on their archer units that target the gravewardens
2) Equipping their horseunits with cloaks of fire-resistance and having them charge gravewardens, bypassing the infantry fodder.
That said, the AI did send an army around a heavily defended castle to attack a town in the rear.
Is the AI even capable of creating units that are not pre-designed? Even so, with multiple competing factions + resource costs I don't think it's a trivial design issue.
It seems like the bigger issue is that the archers were prioritizing your untouchable Champion rather than killing your Grave Wardens. The cost system for the AI seems pretty off, and this is something that seems like it would be far more trivial of an AI task.
If you were playing against me, I would personally not invest in fire resistance in my units due to the crystal costs associated in making it significant. Better to prioritize higher initiative + attack and kill your GraveWardens ASAP.
In the game I'm playing, the actual manna cost for spells is higher than indicated on the spell description??!!
Are you using Rise of the Magi mod?
3. Monsters seem to still be too passive. In my current game the AI walked up and planted a town one square away from a dragon lair. The dragon got up and wandered off, instead of demolishing the town. I would like to see displaced monsters become much more aggressive than they are now, after all they are refugees, forced from their homes. Traditionally such entities become extremely angry and warlike and I think those tendencies need some tuning.
No! I disagree the game isn't about making it challening for the AI it's about making and keeping it challenging for the human player. Thus the AI doesn't need to remain or be too aggressive to other AI's especially the wildlife. They should love one another an ONLY HATE THE HUMAANS! 
I was using the magi mod, but I deleted it, and I turned off "use mod" on the front screen.
How do I restore the original settings?
i have my own opinions on 2 and 3 but they're not AI related. I don't like the road building system. It's something we are looking at changing in e future.
as for monsterthey here is a lot of debate on whether monsters should attack e nearby town or not. It depends heavily on the world difficulty.
Currenty have a game in progress 1.2. AI appears to be smarter/more aggressive. I did have trouble holding onto my cities the first 100 turns or so. Also I have slowed down my pace, meaning I take more time to analyze city improvements, Sov. level ups and just about everything else. I don't feel I have to hurry up so much to keep up with the AI. This is more enjoyable (at least for me). Will post more on my current game a little later. Thanks.
basher-
FE hours 276.30
previously, i would win on ridiculous every time... in my first attempt on ridiculous in v1.2, i lost so something must be better. need more time to evaluate.
This thread is more then a little off topic. Anyway after playing I am not noticing a huge difference from 1.12. Mostly because the things that bug me are still around and I guess I tend to focus on them. Here is what I have found after playing one long game in 1.2.
Good
-The AI goes for magic victory with half decent skill. Although it's usually hard for them to build up that 150 crystals and 500 mana.
-Switching out units in tactical combat to maximize damage and save wounded units. Very very cool.
-They garrison their cities.
-They produce a lot of units.
-They have high level champions.
Bad
-In tactical combat sometimes the AI's units could move and attack my vulnerable units like archers but choose to keep trading blows with my tanks instead.
-They don't seem to cast a lot of magic in tactical. They need to waste less mana on monsters and stuff I guess. When fighting monsters they should use more troops and less mana maybe?
-AI sovereigns and champions still run into my territory and next to my stacks alone. Very very annoying. Seriously there is never a good reason for the AI to put units within a single turns movement of my armies. It should never happen.
-AI spreads its units very thin. The best defense is a good offense. Instead of putting 4-5 units in every city and having your sovereign wander around alone how about combining them to take out my stack? The best defense against a big stack is to gather your own stack. The AI has more then enough units it simply isn't combining them.
-It builds fortresses on spots with low production. You should only build fortresses in high production locations.
-It declares war on players without having an army on the border. I just rolled over Rosoln after they declared war on me because they had no troops near me at all. They should only declare war if they plan on entering my territory with an army the next turn.
Conclusions
The big problem with the AI is definitely its strategic control of units. It sends it's champions and sovereigns out alone into deathtraps way too much. It also builds tons of units but can't deal with players stacks because it splits its units up among all its cities and tons of small armies.
If the AI sees a stack it needs to check how strong it is. Weaker unit groups should fall back and for absolutely no reason what so ever enter within attacking distance of the stack, ever. Nearby cities should be reinforced and used as staging grounds where the AI can combine all it's small armies into big ones. Also if the city is not within 3-4 turns of the enemy stack the troops should move out of the city to reinforce other cities that are threatened, taking advantage of their higher movement in their own territory.
If the AI gathers an army with roughly equal or superior strength then that army should attack the enemy stack. The AI shoves too many units into cities and just forgets about them or has them wandering around solo while it is under attack. Bottom line is every time the AI encounters an enemy army it needs to gather its own army with equal or greater toughness to deal with it, even if it has to give new orders to all its units.
I'd like to second this. Just finished a fun game on Challenging. At one point Verga and I were neck and neck. Verga declares war and I actually was a bit worried. As I hadn't built up all that many troops and my champions were on the other end of the map. I got a stack together and marched down to Verga's cities. I rolled through 2 cities before even finding Verga. Why declare war if not prepared to wage one?
Yes, I definitely am. 
My only criticism in addition to the above is that with the pioneer costing population change, the AI may be producing pioneers a bit too early to be optimal for growth.
To my surprise I have to say that the ai actually got better with the last version, I would even go as far as to say that the game is playable for me but the strategical battles are still the weakest point. Playing at the harder difficulties now is a challenge for me but the strategical battles is stil not very strategical. You know what will happen and can use the same strategies over and over it's just that on harder difficulties they have more units.
New ai gave me hope though and made me want to play more again!
Battle note: Iron Golem vs army with 2 grave wardens & mercenary unit - Golem followed the weak mercenary unit around the map instead of closing with and attacking the grave wardens that were damaging it from afar with their fire staffs. Though the mercenary unit barely survived, the grave wardens were victorious and destroyed the iron golem. This iron golem tactic might be a result of its mindless behavior, not a bad AI.
Pariden rose as the major AI opponent, so you must have done something right. I still hope you can get AI sovereigns to be harder to beat, since those are the "real" decider fights. (sovereign vs sovereign should be epic) Though the winters grasp bug might be the reason? (it removes being able to build completely) This was the first game I've had that Pariden didn't get owned at the start, so I was surprised.
Though something is messed up with the whole "withdrawal" thing. AI's just quit from the game with 8+ cities and 600 power ranking? I don't get that really. AI's should either surrender or fight to the bitter end. This messes up games since you end up with vast territory completely empty. (I've seen it with AI vs AI as well, first time I got it with me vs AI) You need to check this thing, at high levels of difficulty AI's do this quite often.
I have not played too much 1.2 but I am noticing a different feel. Two things I still see the AI doing that are not too smart; One is creating way too many pioneers. This is even worse for them now that pioneers cost population since it keeps their cities from growing. My recent game I saw stacks of two or three pioneers wandering aimlessly for Kraxis. Not sure if that is Kraxis specific he just happened to be closest to me so I noticed it. On a related note he would also always make the mistake of wandering near my cities and I could just pull out one defending unit and pick them off with no effort. If they are going to build so many at least protect them or try and keep them away from danger. The second error the AI makes that occurred before 1.2 is getting more powerful than all their opponents and deciding to go to war on everybody at once. Fighting wars on multiple fronts is always a bad idea in war. I know they may not have declared all of these wars but they should make some effort to avoid this scenario when possible. I would like to see the AI be smarter about how many simultaneous wars it gets involved in. I will keep an eye open for more.
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