Improving Bows

Right now, taking the faction trait that eliminates bows is a bonus IMO

from Elemental Forums

As a preface let it be known that I NEVER play one of the standard factions and always play on HARD. 

Yesterday I created a faction that was "Bow" centric just to see how the game would play out.  I have to say I'm not a fan.  Having a separate tech line for the bows only delays the research into other techs and ultimately, if you or your opponent have mounted units, bowmen are just fodder.

I would like to make 2 suggestions to make bows more viable in the game.

  1. I can understand having a seperate starting tech to research to get the bows going, but after that, just wrap the other bow progression into a different technology so as not to delay the game progression.
  2. I think if a bowman is defending, he should be able to act first and get a bonus to his initiative  so that in effect he is "raining down arrows" on the opponents as they advance,  Better bows would provide better defensive bonuses.  

Don't get me wrong, I was ultimately able to create some pretty awesome bowman characters but I had to essentially stop my conquest campaign for a couple of hours to get there.  That delay makes the bow tech tree both un-appealing and makes the "negative" trait of not having bows in reality a bonus.

16,893 views 11 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I think that all the bows should be available as one tech, with the better bows costing serious labor at each interval.  The bow as a weapon is a support item, and the low initiative caused by the bows penalties are fine.  The real difference between a short bow and a recurve bow is not so much technology, but the lengthy time required to make the better bow.  It would be more realistic to make long bows available, but with a -15% accuracy, which could be erased by researching "Longbow Training".  Or make recurve bows available and have the labor cost be 20, causing any recurve unit a lengthy time period to build.  I think most of my games are long decided before I get to any of the higher techs, which is kind of a shame.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Agreed!  The whole weapon unlocking mechanism both melee and missile is flawed/not fun.  I would like to see all basic weapon types unlock at a earlier in the tech tree and then give us incrementally improved versions or improved troop tactics through tech.  

 

I would argue that the multiple unlockable buildings in the fortress cities line are super annoying busy-work.  The fortress, dedicated to pumping out troops, should get those buildings/bonuses AUTOMATICALLY.

edit:  interrupting troop building to get +2 defense, -25% cost etc. is busy work. end edit.

Let your interesting decisions for the Fortress come at level-up.  Save building decisions for the Towns and Conclaves and give them more cool branching paths.  Also, potions available only at Ye Olde Magick Shoppe in my one conclave city is {yawn}.  I could have a low level hero fetch it, but meh.

 

Also, Kenata in E:WOM had a great mod that would let an archery unit give all enemy units in a 3x3 or 4x4 area a volley of arrows once every 3-5 turns. 

 

So good point and on to 1.13!

Siege of Centauri
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

You can research Enchantment and get ranged fire/frost weapons a lot earlier than you can research bows. They seem to be at least as effective. The only catch is you need a lot of crystal to build units with these weapons. Some powerful bows are available through quests or monster lairs. It's well worth equiping a Champion or Henchman with these bows if you find one. There is also an archer unit available through a quest that can make a huge difference if you get them early

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting JMiddleton, reply 3
You can research Enchantment and get ranged fire/frost weapons a lot earlier than you can research bows. They seem to be at least as effective. The only catch is you need a lot of crystal to build units with these weapons. Some powerful bows are available through quests or monster lairs. It's well worth equiping a Champion or Henchman with these bows if you find one. There is also an archer unit available through a quest that can make a huge difference if you get them early
End of JMiddleton's quote

Yes, the Panca female archers are BEAST!  It is most assuredly worth the few turns required to get them at the beginning of the game, In my opinion they give your sovreign the best bodyguard he could have for free.

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

Interestingly, I have to say that I pretty much like all of these ideas.  Hope the Devs are reading this thread.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting JMiddleton, reply 3
You can research Enchantment and get ranged fire/frost weapons a lot earlier than you can research bows. They seem to be at least as effective. The only catch is you need a lot of crystal to build units with these weapons. Some powerful bows are available through quests or monster lairs. It's well worth equiping a Champion or Henchman with these bows if you find one. There is also an archer unit available through a quest that can make a huge difference if you get them early
End of JMiddleton's quote

 

The mage units are better than archers at every tier IMHO. The computer seems to love heavily armored warriors, and elemental damage is not negated by armor. I usually don't build any archers, ever. The computers seem to love heavily armored units and even one mage group will really shine. Archers meanwhile are throwing stones when the enemies are wearing even leather. By the time you actually research archery most of the computer's units are leatherclad and working their way up. Especially on the higher difficulties when they trade research amongst eachother and are always more technologically advanced than you.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top


In real life, cavalry often are more vulnerable to archery because they are larger targets and while the rider may be armoured or have a shield, the horse might not have such protection.  Archers could potentially be given stakes like that Krax ability.  Just like English longbowmen.  :)

 

Cheers,

Sword

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

and here I was thinking bows need to be tuned down. It is way to easy to go around and kill stuff without even taking dmg with a hero and 4-5 archer groups. mid to late game archer groups are killing most non monster units in one shot, heroes too. and at the beginning of the game you can easily kill a group with a threat lvl higher than your group without taking dmg.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Bows should have some piercing armors capacities. Otherwise, even against leather, they do crap (I'm obviously speaking of units with bows, not magical bows for your heroes)

 

How by the way a magical bow for your units ;)

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Bows with armor piercing capabilities are called staffs.

I would like to see crude bows become available to create units with, not just available during worldgen sovereign creation or as loot.

Remember that one of the points behind different kinds of weapons is to create more rock-paper-scissors tactical decisions. Making bows just like staffs will not help.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top


For bows, I would like to see;

  • Addition of Ranges to bows (Short Bows have range of 8 tiles, Long bows have range of 16 tiles)
  • Add Crossbows - i.e. Cool-down 1, Piercing bonus (Light Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow) that can fire every other turn
  • Some fractions, i.e. Tarth, use an archery focused strategy and archery focused units
  • Allow mounted units to ignore zones of control so that they can target bow units
  • AI has better counter-bow strategies
  • Veteran shield equipped Infantry units have access to Arrow Shield Tactic (+25 dodge bonus vs ranged attacks, -1 movement penalty) that they use when the shields are raised above their heads to shield them from arrows.
  • Spells that affect used of ranged attacks: I.e. Darkness (as in original Elemental) that renders enemy units invisible if they are more than 4 tiles distant from a friendly unit and reduces range of all ranged attacks to 4 tiles.