Suggestion Skill "Adventurer" overpowered

Betrayer + adventurer is fun

Betrayer + wealthy is fun, just not as dramatic

Wealth + civics (rush) is fun, but limited

Beastlord is fun - 0 upkeep umberdroths.

Some of these could be OverPowered, but really each has an opportunity cost and a risk.

While you're focusing on champion research you may not be doing other things - and the AI may outstrip you in terms of cities, armies, mana, etc.

I've had games as betrayer+adventurer (shadow in stormlands) where my entire "faction power' was comprised of the 12 champions I was able pick up - on easy (doh) that worked out well.

I'm replaying the strategy on ridiculous and while I have 8 champions and i focused on exploration - the AI is outstripping me in terms of power.  Plus its really tough to level up/gear 8+ champions.  Its easily blown me up on research, so I'm even more behind (although tireless march is a great asset by itself). 

As beastlord I've had awesome armies of umberdroths, hoarder spiders, great wolves and archers.  

I've also had entire games where there are only a few critters to pick up.  With masters affliction mod the area is so dangerous its difficult to explore and find critters to pick up.  And spiders can't be charmed.

Heroic + henchmen + questmaps is still the most OP IMO although kind of boring after the first run of it.   I don't think I would change any of the above traits. 

Some of the others are a bit lackluster (noble) but other passive skills just keep on giving - i.e. armorer which could easily be more beneficial long term..just a bit more boring.

This is what i think about Adventurer skill...

If you look at it in terms of the number of hero's in WOM then yes it is way overpowered.

If you look at it in terms of the number of heros in FE then it becomes a 'junk' trait.

it also denies the champs to the AI, so you can pick 3 and use the rest as governors and waypoint guards.

i prefer a different form of denial- i like killing the enemy ones to prevent them from being recruited.

Warlock with Death/Water/Fire is incredible.

wanna know whats overpowered?  Altar.  They have no racial weakness, the exp bonus works nicely with general and brilliant, henchmen come early and are still valuable late, as they get trained unit bonuses they are better than most champs on the map. 2 races have unforgivable -1hp/level weakness, and 2 have the worthless +3 attack for number of units in a stack. (3 or less, 5 or over). Then you have 4 good options.

One is to make Ironers/Gilden blood with armorer, quick, and tough empire.  then for sov pick hardy, brilliant, fire2, cruel/clumsy (cruel with melee weapon, clumsy with ranged or magic) and impulsive. 

I personally wish Adventurers made them cost 20% and wealthy is fine, it used to be 1,000 gildar! and early units used t cost less, meaning 2 turn building "militia" then rush for 30 gold, until 20 militia, then run over the whole map.

I have to disagree. Champions just aren't that useful in the grand scheme of things. For a champion to be good, you have to nurture them and level them up a lot, put fancy gear on them, etc. Because of the way they share XP (very badly) combined with a limited amount of stuff to equip, dungeons to explore, and monsters to kill, means that imo you're rarely accomplishing much by having more than 2-3 champions

I tend to agree with NanakoAC. Once you have two or three champions to lead your main armies and one or two to serve as governors (if you bother), you really don't need any more champions. Sure, Adventurer will save you thousands of gild on a high level champion, but it takes so long to research the techs to recruit them that they're usually a bit on the weak side when you can get them, and by the time you can get them your two or three formerly low level champions will generally be at least as good, and are built to your specifications rather than whatever set of skills it was decided to give the high level heroes. You're also generally well on your way to running out of monsters and dungeons, the two best ways of training and equipping champion recruits, and only Altar has a way around that (and Henchmen are generally superior to most champions, high level or not).

High level champions are the only ones whose pricetag really matters, since they are the only ones whose recruitment cost exceeds that of an average trained unit, but I wouldn't bother with most of them anyways if I've already got two or three decent champions to lead my armies and as many as I want to stay at home. And it really isn't worth recruiting high level champions if the only use I have for them is to stay at home. If their armies came with them, then I'd start considering it. As they are currently, Adventurer 'saves' me money I wasn't going to spend in the first place, and costs me experience that could have gone to one of my two or three primary champion/army groups, assuming I do anything other than use the new champion for nonspecialist governing duties. And if I decide to equip them, they'll still cost a lot even with Adventurer, since Adventurer does nothing about the highway robbery costs in the Trader's Shop.

If anything  Adventurer should had more than just a free, I think gave them one more free point move so they are not useless, and top end army is better than many hero, unless it's few hero that had very high level but high level meaning you only need to forced on few 2-3, if more than that, it's no good and level would be so slow that you can't get high level, and slow, lot of money to fancy stuff on armor and weapon, and more importian, it's just in the end what is good adventurer help you when there is no hero on map or you had few good number and too much hero is too much work, so it's not overpower...

Personal I think Adventurer should get 1 or 2 move point so it's stay useful for rest of game...

I agree in general. Champions have suffered so many modifications since beta to vanilla, that the profession is out-of-date.

Maybe adding it a bonus like +10% XP to champions in army, or something like that, would rescue it from forgotten times...(those times were champions ruled the world)

Yes, champion rule the world that you don't need a unit army, when they level so fast that you could get to 35 level in 10 to 20 min...

Of coures that was in .912 beta, not sure when..

[quote who=Black-Knight]Hi I tried most skills in the game and I believe that the ADVENTURER one, which allows to hire heroes for free definitely gives too much of an advantage[/quote]

Did you know that you can modify the number of champions that appear on the map? I've played as an Adventurer and had the world generate with no champions in it...twice (I set Champion Frequency to Random), so Adventurer can be quite underpowered depending on world conditions.

If you want to play as an Adventurer but don't want to have too much of an advantage, or don't want an AI Lord Relias (or Skeleton King & Edror in Stormworld) to have it too easy, try decreasing the Champion Frequency setting.

Can someone at Stardock please delete this thread?  I don't want Derek to see it.  GO BIG OR GO HOME!  Everything in the game is overpowered.  We get it.

When 1/3 say it's overpowered, 1/3 say it's too weak, and the other 1/3 say it's something in between, maybe it's just right!

If you rush the hero tree by focusing on it before the others, you can get lvl 9 champions by about turn 30 or 35. I have beaten all of the enemies in the world with basically 1 stack of champions several times now. Granted, they only end up at level 14 or 15 after killing everything else around, but they are powerful enough by then that it doesn't matter. Also, if you rush out a bunch of scouts with the sneak trait, you can pretty much walk freely around hiring all the champs in the world, who come with a lot of gear and mounts that are not  available any other way. With tireless march and mounts, you can get your stack of champions up to 13 movement points per turn, so they can take roads halfway across the world in a single turn. Also, if you are hiring powerful heroes early on, it adds to your faction power, so none of the AIs will declare war on you- they will be more likely to offer you tribute or at least a favorable trade agreement.

Good point but there are other skills that I would never consider as powerful, so IMO a we could use a little balancing... Connsider that champions can be fast and they just never die!

Or you could just play the skills you consider appropriately powered, while others play more powerful or wimpier builds, according to their preferences.  There's no need to get some mythical balance across the board, since it isn't a game where you're playing against other humans.  One of FE's strengths is the ability to select a configuration that gives you the fight of your life, or one that's a walk in the park; or anything in between.  You want to play a certain way.  There's no reason others must necessarily play to fit your specifications, anymore than you should have to play to fit theirs.

It's a sad truth that using skills and abilities present in the game, it's possible to win the game.  Perhaps they should fix this?

(Also, if you continue the game past that point your victory can become overwhelming.)

Hahaha! Yes, Stardock, please fix this! On topic: I never seem to find many Champs, and even my 2 lvl ~14 champs aren't that powerful. 'Wealthy' seems more useful, albeit very boring.

We must be playing two different games. Champs are the best unit in the game and a bit over powered at times. If only the AI could over power it's champs to make it a challange.

The only nerf I would do this is to give heros a 500 - 1000 gildar discount on recruiting. Not the 100% off. Then the level 9 heros would cost a little something, albeit not as much as before, and the early level champions would still be free. The intention is to entice hero's to your cause but the more renown the hero (experienced) the lure may require some incentive monitarily to join your cause, because they might not want to be involved in the conflict.

Of course I'm in 1 / 3 that doesn't care, but understands both sides of the argument. I say free heoes early and late heroes cost some cash (not a lot though).