Everything is OP. Just reduce it all. Saves time.

from Elemental Forums

I've seen so many threads urging that so many traits, factions, leaders, spells, monsters, and buildings are overpowered.  It doesn't seem to matter that not everybody plays the same way, or on the same map, or at the same level of difficulty--or that Derek and Brad won't hold guns to our tiny collective heads and require we play each and every thing that somebody finds overpowered.  All of it is just too powerful.  Throw it out.

 

So this is my contribution, the easy way to deal with it anything anybody feels is overpowered.  Since there's so much of this, just agree to it all.  Tranq the game, lobotomize the distinctions, and remove the possibility that there will be a single example where someone can cheese the system.  Because, by all that's holy, nobody should have the right to play the game they bought as they see fit.

 

Standing down, now.  Soapbox for rent.

12,505 views 19 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Not everything, but some stuff could use some tweaks yes.

 

Volcano one shotting a faction... not good. (or at least I think it did, was a 1vs1 where I hit the sovereign with volcano, and I won instantly, he had 7 cities left)

 

But the new patch is great. Fixed most of my issues, and it's fun to play now. Just need more and better maps ;)

 

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting sjaminei, reply 1

Volcano one shotting a faction... not good. (or at least I think it did, was a 1vs1 where I hit the sovereign with volcano, and I won instantly, he had 7 cities left)

 
End of sjaminei's quote

Did you report it as a bug?  That's certainly a bug.  Anytime a Sovereign dies while they have cities left they should be returned to the nearest city.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

For the record I like Beastlord and Juggernaughts :)

(btw can beastlord capture Naja and Ophidians ... I hope so. I guess capturing dragons would be too OP, but I think on some version they could capture those as well ...)

If anything I think the Golems should be a bit buffed on the attack (like a base of 10 attack, or something, which the weapons just add on top of) -> or a percentage boost of attack like the Juggernauts have.

1 Golem and 1 Juggernaught, assuming same cost, should be decently well matched. Instead of the 2:1 ratio  that I've heard about.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

They can't capture Ophidians the last time I checked, as they are immune to everything, but that might change in the next patch.  Not sure they were suppose to be immune.  Haven't tried it on Naja.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

there's far too many things which are underpowered too. i know it seems smart to be all meta about it, but this game does need close looking at from a balance perspective

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting NanakoAC, reply 6
there's far too many things which are underpowered too. i know it seems smart to be all meta about it, but this game does need close looking at from a balance perspective
End of NanakoAC's quote

Why?

Various play styles don't NEED to be balanced.  They just need to be fun and viable.  It's an entirely single player game.  For once we can avoid bowing down to the almighty god Balance.  

Juggernauts (for example) are overpowered vis-a-vis other play styles.  So what?  They're also one of the only distinct factors in the game.  They're fun.  

If the devs focus on making sure all the play styles are fun, we'll all be better off.  Play styles certainly need to be viable.  That's not the same thing as balanced.  

Shitcan balance and concentrate on fun and viable.  The game will be better for it.  

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

LOL!  I'm with OP.  +1

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

One of the reasons we need multi-player is so that players can bring their overpowered juggernauts and overpowered beastlords to me.  You will wail and burn in my stinking mud (which is overpowered by the way).  :-)

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top

Nonsense.  The issue with having severely overpowered units & spells is that they limit game options.  If I'm playing as Trogs, I can either use Juggernauts, which completely steamroll every AI and quest, or deliberately play sub-optimally to gimp my faction (as in, either avoid building them or deploy them poorly).  I could also  decline to play as the Trogs altogether.  None of these options is particularly fun or conducive for game immersion.  

 

The developers don't need to nerf everything powerful in the game.  They could buff existing content which is too weak (like summons) or add new counters (like a weapon or spell which does increasing damage to a unit based on the target's weight).  But something has to be done, or the game will devolve into a dichotomy of playing The One Right Way or tying your own arm behind your back.  

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bobchillingworth, reply 10
Nonsense.  The issue with having severely overpowered units & spells is that they limit game options.  If I'm playing as Trogs, I can either use Juggernauts, which completely steamroll every AI and quest, or deliberately play sub-optimally to gimp my faction (as in, either avoid building them or deploy them poorly).  I could also  decline to play as the Trogs altogether.  None of these options is particularly fun or conducive for game immersion.  

 

The developers don't need to nerf everything powerful in the game.  They could buff existing content which is too weak (like summons) or add new counters (like a weapon or spell which does increasing damage to a unit based on the target's weight).  But something has to be done, or the game will devolve into a dichotomy of playing The One Right Way or tying your own arm behind your back.  
End of Bobchillingworth's quote

Nonsense.  You say all this like people haven't been playing the game, and winning, on all difficulty levels without playing as Trogs since release (and long before, really).  There is no One Right Way and to suggest one exists is asinine.  Play the way that is fun to you.  I've played probably 6 games to completion since release and only one used Juggs.  And in only one other was a Juggernaut based faction a threat to me.  

To claim that Juggernauts are the only proper way to play the game is ludicrous.  By midgame my Adventurous Betrayer Sovereign who has stolen the souls of nearly every free hero he has recruited in order to gain easy spell levels oneshots armies of Juggs with one spell before they can move.  Clearly, that one spell is overpowered and anyone not playing my preferred way is gimping themselves, tying one arm behind their back, and failing to play The One Right Way.  

+1 to anyone who can guess the one spell.  

That doesn't mean that other play styles don't need some love.  They certainly do.  However the love they need isn't "balance", it's distinction.  

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Kantok, reply 11

Quoting Bobchillingworth, reply 10Nonsense.  The issue with having severely overpowered units & spells is that they limit game options.  If I'm playing as Trogs, I can either use Juggernauts, which completely steamroll every AI and quest, or deliberately play sub-optimally to gimp my faction (as in, either avoid building them or deploy them poorly).  I could also  decline to play as the Trogs altogether.  None of these options is particularly fun or conducive for game immersion.  

 

The developers don't need to nerf everything powerful in the game.  They could buff existing content which is too weak (like summons) or add new counters (like a weapon or spell which does increasing damage to a unit based on the target's weight).  But something has to be done, or the game will devolve into a dichotomy of playing The One Right Way or tying your own arm behind your back.  

Nonsense.  You say all this like people haven't been playing the game, and winning, on all difficulty levels without playing as Trogs since release (and long before, really).  There is no One Right Way and to suggest one exists is asinine.  Play the way that is fun to you.  I've played probably 6 games to completion since release and only one used Juggs.  And in only one other was a Juggernaut based faction a threat to me.  

To claim that Juggernauts are the only proper way to play the game is ludicrous.  By midgame my Adventurous Betrayer Sovereign who has stolen the souls of nearly every free hero he has recruited in order to gain easy spell levels oneshots armies of Juggs with one spell before they can move.  Clearly, that one spell is overpowered and anyone not playing my preferred way is gimping themselves, tying one arm behind their back, and failing to play The One Right Way.  

+1 to anyone who can guess the one spell.  

That doesn't mean that other play styles don't need some love.  They certainly do.  However the love they need isn't "balance", it's distinction.  
End of Kantok's quote

 

 

I'm not sure you fully read my post.  Obviously there are other ways of winning the game, and several other overpowered strategies.  But that doesn't make Juggernauts any less OP in the context of playing the Trogs, which is what I was discussing.   If you are playing as a Trog Sovereign, you can either defeat literally everything in the game with Juggernaut armies, or you can purposely gimp yourself by limiting your use of that unit.  Unless the Trogs are intended to revolve around their use of this unit, the Juggernaut should not completely dominate the AI.  I understand that there are ways to counter Juggernauts, but the AI never does so effectively- that is a large part of the problem with Juggs or any other OP tactic / unit / whatever.  Either the AI needs to better use the tools available to it, severely OP options need to be toned down, or the developers must introduce more counters.  Settling for the status quo ignores the reality of the problem at hand.  

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Brad will program Juggernaut neutralization strategies into the tactical AI if you just tell him or show him in a YouTube video what they are.  Brad is a sucker for YouTube videos. 

P.S.  YouTube is overpowered.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Strumpetplaya, reply 14
Lemme just load up a hotseat multiplayer game, set that up and... oh wait, nevermind.
End of Strumpetplaya's quote

 

You can switch out factions during the game via cheats.

 

Cheats are...oh, but you've heard it before.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

kiting+ranged weapons counters juggs pretty well, especially if you have a high dodge meat shield to keep them busy for a turn or two.

 

Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Alstein, reply 16
kiting+ranged weapons counters juggs pretty well, especially if you have a high dodge meat shield to keep them busy for a turn or two.

 
End of Alstein's quote

 

This is true, but also irrelevant, since the AI will never do it.  I've noticed that a lot of the arguments against changing OP stuff boil down to "I could beat it with X tactic".  And I'm sure any halfway decent player could!  To be clear, I am not having any difficulty fighting enemy Juggernauts, the AI is.  By way of example, in my current game I'm fighting the Trogs and winning handily, thanks to my use of mounted archer units (which themselves are arguably OP).  But the AI under-builds ranged units, prioritizes targets poorly, and rarely builds mounted untis (and never mounted archers).  A human player could also crush a Juggernaut invasion with spiders, intelligent spell-craft, high-dodge units, sacrificial summon-spam, hit-and-run strikes with high-initiative units, scrolls, the Silver Tongue ability, or a dozen other tactics.  The AI will employ none of these options.  It could be programmed to do so, but Juggs are hardly the only Invincible Strategy available to human players, and fixing the computer so that it can intelligently respond to all of them would require an enormous amount of effort.  Therefore, it makes more sense to either nerf strategies which can win even high-difficulty games with minimal effort, or introduce direct counters into the game.  Or both, perhaps with some AI improvements as well.  I don't care what is done, as long as some of the most egregiously OP strategies are addressed.  

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bobchillingworth, reply 17
AI improvements
End of Bobchillingworth's quote

This is the key.  The AI is still *too* specifically weak.  It needs to understand how to counter a high-damage, low-defense, low-initiative unit.

The best AI's work because they know how to counter.

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kantok, reply 7

Quoting NanakoAC, reply 6there's far too many things which are underpowered too. i know it seems smart to be all meta about it, but this game does need close looking at from a balance perspective

Why?

Various play styles don't NEED to be balanced.  They just need to be fun and viable.  It's an entirely single player game.  For once we can avoid bowing down to the almighty god Balance.  

Juggernauts (for example) are overpowered vis-a-vis other play styles.  So what?  They're also one of the only distinct factors in the game.  They're fun.  

If the devs focus on making sure all the play styles are fun, we'll all be better off.  Play styles certainly need to be viable.  That's not the same thing as balanced.  

Shitcan balance and concentrate on fun and viable.  The game will be better for it.  
End of Kantok's quote

 

Agree!

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Next thing people want to nerf nuclear, it's overpower. LOL, I don't want throw fireball again, again, again to kill enemies, how many rocket or misslie to kill tank in real world? i wonder? If missile or rocket kill one tank or aircraft, I don't recall people scream it's overpower, need to nerf (well, enemies don't want you to had that power so they tried to ban weapon law you cant use it but they can use it, not you) in real life, LOL...