Guys, the point was over there.

Quoting Frogboy,

Should almost do a poll on this:

Would you be willing to give up player designed units to have a greater visual variety in the races?

Basically, the limitation is that each body type / skeleton requires its own set of clothing, armor, etc.

I would, if there were enough premade units to make all factions different. MoM had this and AoW had it, both are better games.

But this not a question for the forum but for a place like Steam where most players are.

As far as OP, I agree with him. I was hoping FE would have more difference with factions. I am sick of using clubs or spears at start no matter who I choose. The fire elemental faction should not use weapons at all, the ogre factions should use tree trunks or throw rocks and so on.

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One of the things I argued over FE's evolution was that, if we accepted the devs' word that there were technical problems in adding more races and models, then FE should have at least compensated by surpassing MoM in other areas, specifically: magic.

Which, unfortunately, didn't happen (I think actually FE went in the opposite direction, with a somewhat anemic and overly random kind of magic, more based on spreadsheet-logic than fantastical effects). The game may be good and will improve but it never even DARED to shoot for greatness, imho

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Heavenfall

Join Date 07/2008

+441

Quoting Ben Yeoh,

reply 44

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 40
Besides, not to argue with you, but the issue isn't body type / skeleton. That's why Stormworld has Centaurs, Frost Giants, Undead skeletons, Golem, halfspiders, haldrakes, halfsnakes, living stone units. All those were done using the normal bodytype. No, imho, the problem isn't bodytype but what you decide to do with it.

I'm curious what you did to pull this off. Did you re-use the models/skeletons/animations in FE for for the half-spiders and half-snakes for example? Did you create and rig your own skeleton and animations and import them? How would it work if I decided to equip the half-spider thing with boots?

Everything is rigged to the same skeleton, lower bodies use the monster skeletons instead (the hybrids are effectively permanently mounted on their lower body). Animations are slightly modified in some places, but mostly I just used what was already in game. If you equip boots on a halfspider it will be equipped, you'll get the bonus, but no 3d graphics will appear.

It's not perfect. Far from it. But it works well enough considering I'm the only one doing 3d stuff at the moment.

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A follow-up 64 bit version of Fallen Enchantress would make it possible to add the diversity most people want. Only then will we the devs be able to address enough memory for all the different models and textures.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 20

Would you be willing to give up player designed units to have a greater visual variety in the races?

One of the drawbacks of player designed units imo is that it allows you build mostly the same units no matter what faction you are playing. This might be realistic; the factions are basically just differently hued humans, why wouldn't they copy effective combinations? But it does remove any sense of cultural identity when you can build the same knights, no matter if you are playing Tarth, or Kraxis, or Magnar.

Predesigned units would help make factions more unique, but it would also limit the players ability to adapt to different situations and pidgeonhole them in a predetermined strategy.

I would suggest you try to add more unique units and more faction specific traits, as long as you are able to balance them so that most wouldn't either only be useful during a certain phase of the game, or so overpowered you should only use them rather than regular units.

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cardinaldirection

Join Date 08/2012

+18

Quoting SOLOSOL,

reply 46

- Unique units. Each faction should have at least 2 or 3 unique units with an specific use. Like jugs. Like hench. Like slaves. I miss monks that can heal, magicians that can use one or 2 spells (attack or defence), druids that can entangle or daze...I think it can be easy introduced by adding traits. Many of the special units are deep in the techs, so it could be good a early specific unit (weak) and a powerfull unit for mid/end game. With a magician unit (monk, warlock, summoner, druid, necromancer, vampires with charming....) we can have now 3 specific units for each faction.

And that, only by using "humanoid models". I think a faction could train ignis or ophidians, skath, spiders, ... almost any of the monsters... But don't attach it to camps.

- Unique traits. One or 2 specific traits for each faction, that will really make difference in standar troops. Many of the traits are already created, just give some of them to a specific race. Other traits could be like some of the skills of heroes: heal (for the monks), swipe, double attack, ... That can really make different units with different uses.

- Mounts. Using spiders, bears, or even skaths could add more variety. How to implement new mount techs? Don't do. Change current to: Basic mount (half bonuses) and Advanced Mount (full bonuses). I find that splitting wargs from horses is a mistake. With my suggestion, any mount can be added without new tech requiered.

- Specific technologies and specific buildings. Only by changing the order of the tech trees for each race, would make playing each one more different. Like making bows starting sooner in tarth. Change the % bonuses for the buildings in each race: more magic for the magic races, more production for the ironeers, tune the research, the food, the unrest, the money... that each building provides for each faction... You can even customice the metal and crystal (instead of 0.5, give some 0.3 and others 0.6). Light changes like that makes light changes in each gameplay...but become big changes when you see all them together. And all this, without creating new techs. Of course, creating new specific techs would give still more difference. Balance issues? Well, we are here to test them... But at this moment, balance is the least important of the issues.

Kael, please pay special attention to the emboldened suggestions above. Many of the game's current mechanics can be tailored to the individual races and factions with very little effort.

+1

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NaytchSG

Join Date 03/2006

+19

Quoting cardinaldirection,

reply 57

Quoting SOLOSOL, reply 46
- Unique units. Each faction should have at least 2 or 3 unique units with an specific use. Like jugs. Like hench. Like slaves. I miss monks that can heal, magicians that can use one or 2 spells (attack or defence), druids that can entangle or daze...I think it can be easy introduced by adding traits. Many of the special units are deep in the techs, so it could be good a early specific unit (weak) and a powerfull unit for mid/end game. With a magician unit (monk, warlock, summoner, druid, necromancer, vampires with charming....) we can have now 3 specific units for each faction.

And that, only by using "humanoid models". I think a faction could train ignis or ophidians, skath, spiders, ... almost any of the monsters... But don't attach it to camps.

- Unique traits. One or 2 specific traits for each faction, that will really make difference in standar troops. Many of the traits are already created, just give some of them to a specific race. Other traits could be like some of the skills of heroes: heal (for the monks), swipe, double attack, ... That can really make different units with different uses.

- Mounts. Using spiders, bears, or even skaths could add more variety. How to implement new mount techs? Don't do. Change current to: Basic mount (half bonuses) and Advanced Mount (full bonuses). I find that splitting wargs from horses is a mistake. With my suggestion, any mount can be added without new tech requiered.

- Specific technologies and specific buildings. Only by changing the order of the tech trees for each race, would make playing each one more different. Like making bows starting sooner in tarth. Change the % bonuses for the buildings in each race: more magic for the magic races, more production for the ironeers, tune the research, the food, the unrest, the money... that each building provides for each faction... You can even customice the metal and crystal (instead of 0.5, give some 0.3 and others 0.6). Light changes like that makes light changes in each gameplay...but become big changes when you see all them together. And all this, without creating new techs. Of course, creating new specific techs would give still more difference. Balance issues? Well, we are here to test them... But at this moment, balance is the least important of the issues.

Kael, please pay special attention to the emboldened suggestions above. Many of the games current mechanics can be tailored to the individual races and factions with very little effort.

yes to both posters' points!

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 20

Should almost do a poll on this:

Would you be willing to give up player designed units to have a greater visual variety in the races?

Basically, the limitation is that each body type / skeleton requires its own set of clothing, armor, etc.

No need to sacrifice customization for variety.

You can just take the other route: instead of visual variety, make it skills/abilities variety.

I don't mind all Mage use same model with different color pallete, as long as Necromancer have different skills/abilities/spells/stats than Druids.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 20

Should almost do a poll on this:

Would you be willing to give up player designed units to have a greater visual variety in the races?

Basically, the limitation is that each body type / skeleton requires its own set of clothing, armor, etc.

I may not do a lot of customizing, but it's there and I know it's there, which is one of the features that drew me to this game. So no, I'm not willing to let it go nor trade it for stock units.

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I agree completely with the OP.

To be honest, I dont really care about the background lore, so to me Elemental is basically 8 slightly different skinned human factions. For this type of 4x game, it is far more important to have radical faction difference and unit differences or the gameplay suffers. I would sacrifice custom units in a heartbeat if it meant that each faction had their own unique units with special abilities. In a fantasy setting, the use of different races per faction instantly gives each race a unique feel, and adds huge amounts of replay value, as well as making for interesting opponents to fight. It doesnt just apply to units. You could have had different factions have completely different sets of buildings, or make use of resources in different ways.

I greatly enjoyed customising my spaceships in Galciv2, both for cosmetic reasons, and because the missiles/lasers/mass drivers game mechanic worked well. I dont think the same mechanic really works in a fantasy setting, and its a real shame that unit unique abilities were sacrificed for this.

I think Elemental would have had far wider mainstream appeal if it had gone with a multi-racial high fantasy faction setup, but I guess I will have to hope the modding community can come up with something more to my taste.

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I would gladly give up player designed units for more variety. I suspect most players have their favorite builds and just recreate them every game.

FE is not like most space 4X games where shields stop mass drivers but melt to beam weapons. I don't see FE as a game where you "react" to what the opponent is building.

Besides unique units are the key to faction differentiation.

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Quoting Admiral Rom,

reply 61

To be honest, I dont really care about the background lore, so to me Elemental is basically 8 slightly different skinned human factions.

I know this problem. I have it with books. Aside the story, its always only paper and letters. So boring...

All bad jokes aside... are you all really that conservative? Not bored of the same high fantasy settings again and again? Elves, orcs, dwarfs.... i mean THIS would be boring. Sure, more unique units would be cool. But pls, no elves, dwarfs etc.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 20

Should almost do a poll on this:

Would you be willing to give up player designed units to have a greater visual variety in the races?

Basically, the limitation is that each body type / skeleton requires its own set of clothing, armor, etc.

Oh yes please!!!

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 20

Should almost do a poll on this:

Would you be willing to give up player designed units to have a greater visual variety in the races?

Basically, the limitation is that each body type / skeleton requires its own set of clothing, armor, etc.

I'm unsure. I'd definitely give up some things for visual AND gameplay variety.

Examples of things I'd give up:

separate armor pieces

some magical equipment

-those two things are pains

I'd want to control promotions, weapons, suits of armor.

I think the level of customization in GC2 was great, but it doesn't work as well in FE.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 20

Should almost do a poll on this:

Would you be willing to give up player designed units to have a greater visual variety in the races?

Basically, the limitation is that each body type / skeleton requires its own set of clothing, armor, etc.

Yes

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I don't think we need to lose custom units. Several small things can be done to make units unique while retaining unit design. Besides how would we make custom faction without custom units?

1. More unit traits tied to race and faction traits. Some ideas here.

2. Reducing trait spaces on units to 2 from 3, so that units can't do everything at once.

3. Some minor graphical changes to armor. Every unit currently looks the same in armor. I know this takes up memory and time but there are some small things you could do that would make a big difference.

i) Add helmet decorations tied to race. These would be simple art assets that would be added to helmets in the artdefs. Like feathers, horns, horsetails, and Roman crests. So for example all Ironner helmets would gain viking horns.

ii) Changing the skins on armor so they change more in relation to faction colors.The color of your armour needs to vary much more depending on your faction. It needs to be in your face.

iii) Changing fallen leather armor so it isn't the same style as kingdom, ie Hellenic. Remove the leather strip skirt and replace it with something different.

iv) Vary armor art among the races/modeltypes slightly. So maybe Kraxis keeps the leather skirt but the other fallen lose it. Make trog armor more bestial through small things like skins changes or adding some sort of decoration.

4. More powerful and noticeable blood traits.

I wish there was a bigger difference in size between the different troop models available now. Currently the fact that Trog units are a fair bit larger then humans is barely noticeable. If we even had large and normal bodies that where noticeable different when in armor you could do a lot with that. You would really have to overemphasize it though so Trogs looked like ripped top heavy body builders. All the work put into making the model and armor models for large units is somewhat wasted.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 20

Would you be willing to give up player designed units to have a greater visual variety in the races?

Not even remotely. I would pay for DLC to increase the flexibility of created units though, add more flavor to them and more unique faction units. I spent almost as much time in GalCiv2's ship creator as I did in the strategic part of the game. A large part of my love of GalCiv2 is how fun it was designing my own ships. And selling them (or giving them away) to minor factions so that they could have a fighting chance against the larger ones. Being an arms dealer was quite fun. You'd be amazed at what happens when you give a race of evil squirrels a super-titan.

Quoting Heavenfall,

reply 53

If you equip boots on a halfspider it will be equipped, you'll get the bonus, but no 3d graphics will appear.

Heavenfall, reading that gave me a mental image that possibly just made my entire day. I want to see a halfspider unit wearing boots. Not just one pair, but I want all the legs wearing boots.

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Quoting Rath3130,

reply 68

Heavenfall, reading that gave me a mental image that possibly just made my entire day. I want to see a halfspider unit wearing boots. Not just one pair, but I want all the legs wearing boots.

Four different pairs of boots, too! (Or maybe only three. Do half-spiders have 6 legs or 8, if you do not count the arms as legs)

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Quoting Tuidjy,

reply 69

Quoting Rath3130, reply 68Heavenfall, reading that gave me a mental image that possibly just made my entire day. I want to see a halfspider unit wearing boots. Not just one pair, but I want all the legs wearing boots.

Four different pairs of boots, too! (Or maybe only three. Do half-spiders have 6 legs or 8, if you do not count the arms as legs)

Half-Spiders have half the amount of legs right?...

~ K

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Quoting Kongdej,

reply 70

Quoting Tuidjy, reply 69
Quoting Rath3130, reply 68Heavenfall, reading that gave me a mental image that possibly just made my entire day. I want to see a halfspider unit wearing boots. Not just one pair, but I want all the legs wearing boots.

Four different pairs of boots, too! (Or maybe only three. Do half-spiders have 6 legs or 8, if you do not count the arms as legs)

Half-Spiders have half the amount of legs right?...

~ K

Or, their legs are shorter. Rabid demonic spider dachshunds.

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Quoting Lantros,

reply 63

I know this problem. I have it with books. Aside the story, its always only paper and letters. So boring...

All bad jokes aside...

Yes, lets put that aside because it wasn't funny and was a terrible analogy. I like the way you insinuate I don't like reading either, thanks for that.

Quoting Lantros,

reply 63

are you all really that conservative? Not bored of the same high fantasy settings again and again? Elves, orcs, dwarfs.... i mean THIS would be boring. Sure, more unique units would be cool. But pls, no elves, dwarfs etc.

At this point, moaning about Elves and Dwarves has become a tired cliche.

As you didnt seem to understand my point about the lore being meaningless for faction differentiation, I will explain it further: In the civ games, you can play as many different civilisations. Each Civ has detailed background, which a player can read if they are interested in the history, but it has no bearing on the actual in-game play of a civ. What makes the civ unique are their specific civ bonuses, their unique units and buildings, and the unique portraits/dialogue of the leaders. There is an extra resonance because they are all based on actual real life civilisations, so it doesnt matter that they are all human civs.

Now with Elemental, the lore again makes no difference at all for game mechanics. However, the different factions are reskinned humans, with access to the same gear and without unique abilities. Its boring, and offers minimal replay value.

Imagine if they had ditched customisable units and had instead given each race completely unique troops. Each faction could have had some radically different units, which offered special abilities that dramatically altered tactical battles. For example:

Wood Elves Faction Units:

Elven spearmen (mithril armour gives increased movement. Centuries of warfare means two attacks from massed spearmen ranks when defending)

Elven Archers (weak and light armour, so reduced hp. Increased range and damage from Elven longbows)

Treants (Massively tough, but slow unit. Can root one enemy unit every other turn)

Dryads (alluring mischievous sprites can confuse one unit per turn, hard to hit, but not physically powerful combatants)

Unicorn cavalry (increased damage on charge. Elite Maiden cavalry riders immune to charm spells)

Elven Druids (healing nature magic, call lightning from the sky)

Elven ballistae (Fires 2 Metre long bolts that pierce through units)

Mountain Dwarves Faction Units:

Dwarven Tunnelfighters (Wields Axes and massive Tower shields. Greatly increased toughness and damage resistance)

Dwarven berserkers (Frenzied dual wielders. Immune to all psychological effects, fear etc, attacks twice)

Dwarven riflemen (High damage range weapon, short range)

Dwarven Stoneshaper (Summon rock walls, earth elementals, protective stoneskin spells)

Dwarven siege tank (Massively tough unit, built in cannon)

Dwarven artillery (Long range, explosive blast radius from shells)

Thats just a quick list of different units, but playing with armies like that would feel hugely different, as well as looking completely different too. Of course there could be a detailed background story to each different race, but my point is that such lore is irrelevant to gameplay, and does not help with faction differentation.

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Quoting Admiral Rom,

reply 72

with access to the same gear and without unique abilities.

My juggernauts cried when you wrote this...

That said, you might be halfway right, I still don't think unit customization should go, because I like customizing my units.
BUT, if each faction had more... something on unit designs, umber faction trait tried, same with magnar, but you can't build an army around being vulnerable to cold damage (except trying to remedy this).

Meaby the solution would be more traits similar to "Light Plate", and "Master Archers".
Another solution could lie in designing a ton-load of traits, and spreading them equally between the 10 races (10 begins to sound like a lot of races )

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

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mqpiffle

Join Date 10/2010

+44

I personally like the idea of unit traits being tied more closely to faction rather than losing unit customization altogether.

Also I agree with some folks who have stated that armor pieces are not really needed, that full sets would do just fine, with different variations on a theme.

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I would love to have more uniqueness by sacrificing the customized unit creation.

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The other thing that I feel should be said here is that "unit design" isn't really a set of tradeoffs, it's putting the best stuff that you have on the units you're sending out. I only make 3 types of units: pioneers, a heavy defense unit, and a series of ranged units, either archers or mages, depending on the availability of crystal. That's usually sufficient to win, and win big. It is, however, not very satisfying in terms of lore.

Predesigned units force negative attributes to be taken, which increases tactical depth. If I'm going to wait 8-9 turns for a unit to be built, I'm certainly not going to design it with weaknesses. As we consider whether or not to scrap unit customization, it would be worth having the discussion of what would balance unit customization.

One easy one I could see is that, the more materials, crystals, etc, a unit takes, the higher the probability that the creation of the unit gets a random negative trait on it assigned when the unit finishes building.

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Guys, the point was over there.

...I'm afraid you missed it.