[AI] will we ever see building guides for champions ?(and do we need them?)

from Elemental Forums

after pondering a lot i dont see a way around it

imo (but i would be glad to be wrong) the way ai handles champions etc is too much wrong and too hard to improve

priorities dont work on the long run because its too common to find something better in general but worst on the specific

 

 

so we are stuck having magnar using axes and plate, relias building as warrior and casting fireballs and i really want to cry every time i see irane getting air 5 and casting all the time in battle, i cry when i see ceresa getting warrior traits and going to fight melee etc etc

its a chaos

and it cant be improved just with priorities because fireball IS a good spell but ai need to full build to cast fireball or build elseway and dont cast it at all, even if it could

 

i think one the things the game need the most is some path to follow and to follow it precisely

i dont care if magnar ai wants to play as an assassin, it can work, but i want him to follow the assassin  path all the way, i want him to wear assassins armors, get assassin traits and play in tactical using assassin abilities

 

so we just need n (not really that high, maybe less than 10 after all) guides, ai pick one of them for each champion and follow it to the letter, each guide will have priorities for that path only, a mage will never pick a plate when there is a robe avaiable, a warrior in tactical that cannot melee for some reason will not try to cast fireball, just wait his turn to swing his axe)

 

anyone has a different solution? because this situation is depressing sometimes and id really like it solved since it shouldnt be that hard

 

 

 

 

 

5,807 views 7 replies
Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't think "Guides" where the AI follow a precise trait plan is a good idea, but it should use some logic picking traits.

Ceresa should NOT go anything but mage.
Warlord Verga should go assassin or warrior.

Its simple, the system should pick the path in which the hero is already strong, if the hero have few HP, or access to fire magic (and normal hp, and no bonuses to other stuff) it should go mage.
If the Hero have decent HP, and Decent initiative, go for warrior.
If the Hero have nice dodge and damage bonus, go for assassin.

If the hero have the weak trait, or clumsy, or -30 accuracy to high lvl mobs trait, level the hero to 4-5 with assistance and go path of the governor.

Stuff like that would help the AI not picking path of the warrior for weak heroes, or path of the assassin for oracle Ceresa, or actually playing Queen Porcupine. (Ok I just don't like her build ATM).

and it cant be improved just with priorities because fireball IS a good spell but ai need to full build to cast fireball or build elseway and dont cast it at all, even if it could
End of quote

That's not a good rule, my current hero have the Porcupine's crown, and I enchanted my hero with the ability to throw fireballs, just 1 battle ago I bashed some wolves, even though my hero is an assassin, but it should ONLY cast fireballs against big groups!

(The wolf stack was 3 big wolf stacks with the dire-wolf buff, so they all had +7 attack, I decided to just blast them and be done with it).

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Kongdej, reply 2


Ceresa should NOT go anything but mage.
Warlord Verga should go assassin or warrior.

Its simple, the system should pick the path in which the hero is already strong, if the hero have few HP, or access to fire magic (and normal hp, and no bonuses to other stuff) it should go mage.
If the Hero have decent HP, and Decent initiative, go for warrior.
If the Hero have nice dodge and damage bonus, go for assassin.
End of Kongdej's quote

 

this is nearly what i told :P

 

 




That's not a good rule, my current hero have the Porcupine's crown, and I enchanted my hero with the ability to throw fireballs, just 1 battle ago I bashed some wolves, even though my hero is an assassin, but it should ONLY cast fireballs against big groups!
End of quote

 

 

this is more about the build cause the build is more written in stones

once ai pick a trait thats it for the rest of the game, so i rather haves a scripted choice than complicated evaluations

 

after the build is good i also cast sometimes to make combats shorter :P (also its fireball its cooler to see than n autoattacks :D )

as a personal preference i rather not see ai do it anyway though

 

 

 

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't think guides is possible with such a random trait system. But level-up traits should definitely be put into AI categories like "spell caster", "melee offense", "tank mode" and so on. Then the hero can follow those to become useful. Also tells them what gear they ought to go for on those heroes.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

well what you call categories is what i mean by "guides" :P

 

just a list of traits and items for that "path"

 

 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 3
this is nearly what i told
End of ddd888's quote

Well we are also (almost) completely in agreeance.

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 5
I don't think guides is possible with such a random trait system. But level-up traits should definitely be put into AI categories like "spell caster", "melee offense", "tank mode" and so on. Then the hero can follow those to become useful. Also tells them what gear they ought to go for on those heroes.
End of Heavenfall's quote

I really hope they do this though :D

Quoting ddd888, reply 6
well what you call categories is what i mean by "guides"

just a list of traits and items for that "path"
End of ddd888's quote

I understand your's and Heavefall's idea's as different, it might be the language barrier.
But what I understood from your post was the game would "create a path" from the start of the game, pick one off 10 different sets of paths, and no matter what 5 choices came available, the AI would always get "Potential" at 2nd level, and "Adventurers Boon" at 3rd level, making it cheat the random system in this way.

 

What Heavenfall is saying (or how I understand it) just pre-creates an amount of groups, which favour different types of traits.
So a "Path of the Warrior" hero would never favour picking traits that boost magic abilities, or governor abilities if said hero had such.
So say they gain 5 choices, they would pick the choice most aligned the preset "Guide/category".

 

If you meant what Heavenfall said, I am sorry, then I completely agree, except sometimes fireballs should be cast at random... Because casting fireballs is awesome :)

PS, give me a sword that casts fireballs with each melee attack... Rawr, Slash, BOOM!

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top
Quoting Kongdej, reply 7

 


 

What Heavenfall is saying (or how I understand it) just pre-creates an amount of groups, which favour different types of traits.

End of Kongdej's quote

yeah i mean this exact thing, maybe i wasnt very clear in the op post