[Proposal] Different Axe Ability: Sunder

from Elemental Forums

Since there seems to be a consensus that Backswing isn't very useful, how about Axes get an ability more in line with their expected behavior - I'll call it "Sunder".  It's effect would be to cause a stacking -1 Armor penalty to the target, which lasts until the end of the battle.  Thus, if a 5-man axe-wielding group attacks a champion with 30 armor, and they all hit, the champ's net armor is reduced to 25 - another 5 hits would reduce it to 20.

This would give champions a reason to take large groups of weaker foes seriously - even if they do minimal direct damage, they're still leaving the champion more vulnerable to other foes.  The champions are incentivized to take out axe-wielders quickly, while the axe-wielders are trying to position themselves to all attack a foe at the same time.  In short, it would introduce a new layer of tactics, while making trainer units more relevant.

Thoughts?

5,619 views 8 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I like it.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

yes seems good but you need to think something for champions

surely sunder multiplied by troops count is good

but what for champions? 1 armor reductions is more usless than backswing you would never use a axe on them

 

 

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ddd888, reply 2
yes seems good but you need to think something for champions

surely sunder multiplied by troops count is good

but what for champions? 1 armor reductions is more usless than backswing you would never use a axe on them
 
End of ddd888's quote

You could also have quest-given axes with an improved version of sunder, sort of like how there are quest-swords with more than one counterattack/round.  And when you're dealing with slow, tough solo monsters, having a few high-init heroes chipping away at its armor and then retreating could take its toll (though the current confined maps limit effectiveness against 3 and 4-movers like drakes and slags).

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I dislike that this ability applies a stacking penalty - at present, the maximum cutting defense available comes from Masterwork Chain (52 defense) if you have it, or Champion Plate (37 defense) if you don't.  Plate and regular chain are equivalent, at 32 defense against cutting attacks.  This means that if I keep a couple groups of 9 axemen in my army, I can almost completely negate the defense of any unit relatively quickly, even if they have the best armor available.

Moreover, since the value of any kind of Plate armor is doubled against blunt attacks, how would this affect the armor's performance versus blunt weapons? Does the penalty apply only to the base value? Does it apply to the value of the armor vs cutting and continue until the value vs cutting is zero? Does it apply to -1 to base defense and -1 to defense versus whatever the armor is good against?

How does this apply to trained units? If I have a group of 9 axemen attacking attacking a group of 6 spearmen equipped with leather (no shield, so total 8 defense) is the affect that each spearman loses 1.5 armor? Does the top guy in the stack lose 8 armor and the next guy down lose 1? Resoln cannot natively produce armor better than leather - is it reasonable to add a mechanic which virtually destroys the little armor they get, accessible at about the same time that they can get that armor?

I do agree that Backswing needs some work, but I would rather see axes get a chance of making a second attack (regardless of whether it hit or missed) or apply a non-stacking initiative penalty to the unit rather than a stacking armor penalty, especially since damage calculations for trained units are done on a per-figure basis.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joeball123, reply 5
I dislike that this ability applies a stacking penalty - at present, the maximum cutting defense available comes from Masterwork Chain (52 defense) if you have it, or Champion Plate (37 defense) if you don't.  Plate and regular chain are equivalent, at 32 defense against cutting attacks.  This means that if I keep a couple groups of 9 axemen in my army, I can almost completely negate the defense of any unit relatively quickly, even if they have the best armor available.

End of joeball123's quote

well 4 attacks doesnt look quick to me

magic for example would take less to just kill that guy

ofc balance is complicated here, also in proportion between champions and troops

 



Moreover, since the value of any kind of Plate armor is doubled against blunt attacks, how would this affect the armor's performance versus blunt weapons? Does the penalty apply only to the base value? Does it apply to the value of the armor vs cutting and continue until the value vs cutting is zero? Does it apply to -1 to base defense and -1 to defense versus whatever the armor is good against?
End of quote

ofc you hit the armor, whatever it is, so you reduce it all

tbh  im not sure about negative def

 



How does this apply to trained units? If I have a group of 9 axemen attacking attacking a group of 6 spearmen equipped with leather (no shield, so total 8 defense) is the affect that each spearman loses 1.5 armor? Does the top guy in the stack lose 8 armor and the next guy down lose 1? Resoln cannot natively produce armor better than leather - is it reasonable to add a mechanic which virtually destroys the little armor they get, accessible at about the same time that they can get that armor?
End of quote

resoln is supposed to be a magic faction

they shoudl fight with magic and summoned creatures etc

anyway i supposed the value of sunder need to be balanced

like first axe giving a minimum amount so its good against leather but way less good against plate etc and later tier of axe give better stuff



I do agree that Backswing needs some work, but I would rather see axes get a chance of making a second attack (regardless of whether it hit or missed) or apply a non-stacking initiative penalty to the unit rather than a stacking armor penalty, especially since damage calculations for trained units are done on a per-figure basis.
End of quote

 

it surely is more easy to balance like you propose but its also less cool :(

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

It's a good trait idea, but not for the axe. Reducing armor would be incredibly valuable. I added once such ability to my endgame heroes and it still feels OP. Giving that to regular troops is just not possible to balance. Even at a 10% chance to sunder, you are giving too much power against armor. Ignoring armor is a better thing for trained units.

But actually the concept is quite fun. My high level swashbucklers run circles around tanks, cracking armor on each strike. It really adds some interesting mechanics to hero abilities, but it is only balanced by the fact that all other heroes have similar abilities and my units play with twice the armor of vanilla and three times the Hp.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Term Sunder is already used for a Fire+Air spell .

 

 

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I call it "Crack Armor."