Fallen Enchantress has a problem. Here's how I would solve it. [long and boring]


I believe that Fallen Enchantress has a problem. It's a great game, and I find myself enjoying it a lot every time I come back to it.  I must have put more time into it than I have in any TBS since the original Age of Wonders and Rome Total War.

I love it, but everytime I play it I find myself not quite satisfied.  I have been trying to figure out why, and here is what I have come up with.

FE is meant to be a strategy.  A lot of effort has been put into fleshing out city management, troop design, diplomacy, etc...  But unless I make up home rules I end up leveling two or three heroes, and conquering the world with them.  Usually they are assassins, sometimes they are fighters or mages, but at the end they make troops irrelevant.  I do not think I am the only one who plays this way.  At higher difficulty levels, it's the only viable choice, and even at lower ones, it's the most effective style of playing.

Is this a problem?  It is for me.  Is this an easy problem to fix?  No.  AoW1 never did.  AoW2's heroes were unsatisfying.  Some HoMMs were ruined by it.  Even some Total Wars had it - Armenian, Egyptian and Sassanid generals could kill a few thousands of soldiers with just their bodyguards.  So can anything be done about it?  Lets try and figure it out.

Why is this happenning?  Because a properly leveled hero will be more or less untouchable by trained troops, even as early as turn 50, when heroes pass level 15 or so.  By turn 75, when even Insane AIs have barely started mass producing the highest tier troops, heroes dodge almost every attack, absorb/resist any damage that can be mitigated, and shrug off anything that cannot be.  For an example, check out this playthrough, in which by turn 70 I had three heroes that were each taking level 5 cities defended by dozens of plateclad enemy heroes and nine men units.

It's unrealistic, unsatisfying, and a waste of the attention that went into crafting the strategy part of the game.  I would like to see it fixed, but let us first look at the pitfalls that have to be avoided.

The worst that can be done is to nerf heroes to the point they have no function in the game.  Heroes must remain the most valuable units even in late game, because having a badass avatar is what many players appreciate above all else.

Another thing to avoid is to introduce obscure, unrealistic and unintuitive game mechanics like hard counters.  No player wants to see his carefully nurtured and equipped hero shishkebob'd by three peasants with pointy sticks.

A third pitfall is to introduce a new type of strategy that excludes all others by being too effective.

And finally, whatever fix is brought in, it should not change the existing balance in areas outside of hero/troop interaction, and should be at least somewhat intuitive.

So, for those who have read so far, here is what I suggest.

Keep champions as the glorious heroes of legend - dragon slayers, dungeon crawlers, powerful casters.  But let them bow to the fact that even the greatest human swordsman cannot just brush away a shieldwall of well trained sword infantry.  Let them fear being surrounded by 72 spearmen.  Force them to have to prepare if they want to survive a rain of arrows.  How?

Introduce bonuses and penalties based on the number of separate individuals (models) in an unit.  The numerical values of these bonuses will have to be tuned during Beta 5.

1. Every attack by a separate model reduces the target's dodge value by a fixed amount.  This amount is divided by the number of models in the target unit.  At the beginning of an unit's combat turn, the penalty is cleared.

2. Every successful melee hit reduces the the target's defense value by a fixed amount.  This amount is divided by the number of models in the target unit.  At the beginning of an unit's combat turn, the penalty is cleared.

3. No matter how high the attack value of a model, one model can only kill a limited number of models in one attack.

4. Introduce units and champion traits that affect the above bonuses.  Champions who do not lose dodge for the first X attacks, creatures whose defense is not reduced by multiple hits, monsters that can attack every model in a unit at once, masters who can kill multiple models in one attack.  Of course, have also traits that enhance the bonuses.  Nets that multiply the dodge penalty, weapons that increase the defense penalty after a hit.

5. Restrict some of the unit traits based on unit size.  This way you can have elite units with fewer models with specialist functions.

How is the above going to solve the hero problem?  Well, a hero trying to take on a big army singlehandedly could be simply overwhelmed - a bit like being dragged down by the mob and kicked to death.  He will not be able to kill them fast enough, and his dodge and defense will be mitigated if enough enemies surround him.

But it will not be a hard counter.  A high level hero will be able to deal with a limited number of enemies, especially if he specializes in mob fighting, and/or has a few friendly units watching his flanks.  And the heroes will be just as effective in the early game, when fewer models can be fielded at once.

Furthermore, heroes will never be made irrelevant.  They will still be monster slayers, and useful against trained units when supported.  We will just not see ridiculous situations like a lone hero being pounded by 72 heavy troops, being shot at by 100 archers, and not suffering a scratch.

And best of all, by tuning the numerical values of bonuses and penalties, the effect can be made as small or as pronounced as needed

23,578 views 23 replies
Reply #1 Top

Or just make the monsters tougher and more aggressive so that you need more men/women to win fights.

Reply #2 Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 1
Or just make the monsters tougher and more aggressive so that you need more men/women to win fights.
End of joasoze's quote

I disagree with the tougher part.  Slaying monsters is a job for a hero.  If it takes 100 soldiers and a 50% casualty rate to kill a dragon, the dragon realistically wouldn't get killed.

As for monsters' aggressiveness, I agree with you, but it has nothing to do with the problem I am trying to address. 

Reply #3 Top

I really don't see the problem with nerfing champions. I want to nerf them from being able to kill 5 enemy units on their own, to being able to kill 1-2 units on their own.

Reply #4 Top

If the monsters were tougher you could not solo everything with heroes. Isnt that what you want?

Reply #5 Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 5
If the monsters were tougher you could not solo everything with heroes. Isnt that what you want?
End of joasoze's quote

No, I do not mind soloing monsters.  I don't need to, but I do not mind.  I mind soloing armies of well-equipped, well-trained AI troops, and taking cities singleheroedly.

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 3
I really don't see the problem with nerfing champions. I want to nerf them from being able to kill 5 enemy units on their own, to being able to kill 1-2 units on their own.
End of Heavenfall's quote

Yes, that's what I am trying to achieve.  I just do not want them nerfed into uselessness.

 

Reply #6 Top

I have actually suggested similar mechanics like the OP in the past - ie, unit traits that allow them to grow in strength the more members they have. But it wasn't for this particular purpose, it was just for modding in neat traits. I rather like the idea though. There could also be anti-zerg champion traits to help champions deal with large enemy groups (at the expense of not being particularly good at killing monsters or other champs).

 

Anyway, some easy ways to nerf champions:
- reduce the Xp they gain by 50%. This should put you level 9-10 after about 200 turns which should be fairly close to "act 3". No more level 5 spelltraits before any player has even researched past Blacksmithing.
- reduce the hitpoints they gain from each level-up to 2 from 4. Defense and attack values are untouched, they just don't last nearly as long in battle. Makes path of the defender far more viable as it will be the only path that allows you to stay in combat long.

 

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 7
 There could also be anti-zerg champion traits to help champions deal with large enemy groups (at the expense of not being particularly good at killing monsters or other champs). 
End of Heavenfall's quote

That's exactly it!

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 7
- reduce the Xp they gain by 50%. This should put you level 9-10 after about 200 turns which should be fairly close to "act 3". No more level 5 spelltraits before any player has even researched past Blacksmithing. 
End of Heavenfall's quote

I do not think that this will work.  Right now my sovereign is often level 15 before turn 50 (on turn 32 in the playthrough linked above)  You would have to reduce the Xpt gain to 10% to keep him at level 10 on turn 200.

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 7
reduce the hitpoints they gain from each level-up to 2 from 4. Defense and attack values are untouched, they just don't last nearly as long in battle. Makes path of the defender far more viable as it will be the only path that allows you to stay in combat long.  
End of Heavenfall's quote

This will not work.  I play on Insane where monsters have 3 times the hit points.  It just does not matter how many hit points my sovereign has.  I play without restores, so I usually only pick up fights where I know I'll be at full health at the end, because apart from mites and bandits, there's nothing you can outlast.  You either avoid trading blows, or you die anyway.


Reply #8 Top

It's not about world monsters, it's about bringing them closer in line with army units.

Reply #9 Top

I agree. What really needs to be done is to give each individual, weather it is a single hero or a soldier in a group, separate attacks and separate health points.

So if a hero attacks a group of soldiers, each of his attacks can at the most kill one soldier, rather than two, three, or four-and-a-half. Area spells like fireball could damage each unit in the group. But if the spell doesn't do enough damage to kill them all soldiers would remain alive, just with say half their health points, rather than having half the group survive at full health and the other half dying.

This would also open up some interesting mechanics; weapons like greatswords and greataxes could have sweeping attacks, that can damage more than one unit in a group at a time. Certain heroes could gain more attacks so they are more suited for attacking groups of trained units. A trait like maul could be changed so it grants another attack on another individual in the same group if the first attack hits, making certain monsters devastating to trained units but not necessarily to heroes. Etc

Unfortunately, this has been suggested more than once before, and I haven't seen any indication that it will be implemented.

Reply #10 Top

Tuidjy, SeanW's has a balancing mod that makes champion advancement much slower, and city-derived troops rather better.  Lots of other changes, too.  You might want to check it out.

Reply #11 Top

O M G Tuidjy used his brain and thought about this.....

 

what a rare breath of fresh air. 

 

thanks for the brain candy

 

Reply #12 Top

Quoting Glazunov1, reply 11
Tuidjy, SeanW's has a balancing mod that makes champion advancement much slower, and city-derived troops rather better.  Lots of other changes, too.  You might want to check it out.
End of Glazunov1's quote

I will, once the game is out.  For now I try to spend as much effort on making the base game as much to my liking as possible.  After all, we are beta testers. I am drooling over Heavenfall's and SeanW's posts about their mods, but I stick to the official version.

Reply #13 Top

If they make hero development slower, monsters tougher and normal units a touch better then I am a happy camper :d

Reply #14 Top

I remember back when WoM was first announced FB was talking about a single dragon laying waste to hundreds of troops and I read with glee imagining a kind of fantasy Total War game with turn based battles and civ-like campaign management, it felt like a dream come true. Over the years the game seems to have gone from one extreme to another.

While I understand that the initial concept was likely unrealistic in its intention it's disappointing how far in the other direction it's all gone. Heroes should be powerful centrepieces of an army, not the army itself. I've no idea if the solution is as simple as making units build faster or introducing a separate build que but I certainly hope something is done about this. 

Reply #15 Top

Not this again.

Reply #16 Top

Tuidjy,good post. I will add that now a group of soldiers playing as one unit. We also need rules as a flank attack and similar. Where three groups will have a bonus against one group or the hero. And I do not see any reason to build a group of three soldiers when available from 5-7. Now there is a bug. Small groups of soldiers have more upkeep than larger. Also, the difference in production is too low.

Reply #17 Top

I agree, something should be done, yet, i do not think it will. 

In most of my games i do not even longer bother to train any troops, and only time i ever trained them was long time ago when monsters were randomly respawning close to the cities. I regret that the game choose this direction: limiting number of troops by both production (either a troop or a building, length of training) and usefulness. I would love to have great number of armies only enhanced by heroes at crucial places. Right now most of the time i have two armies moving and acting, so game becomes way more tactical than strategical ...

Only hope at this point of beta, however, is in modders .....

Reply #18 Top

bpalczewski, I absolutely agree. This is a major blow to the future of multiplayer. Game of one battle. As a series of Homm - very casual game, which mistakenly called turn-based strategy.

Reply #19 Top

Very interesting ideas Tuidjy, I like the idea of troops have a combined and increased attack or w/e. However, that being said, I would probably throw out that having individual units in a squad or group die one at a time would be a bad solution, mostly because I believe it would feel too limiting and wasteful to the heroes that become powerful. It would also encourage pretty much every hero to be a tank, or an aoe mage.

 

What I would suggest is that basic units actually grow stronger with levels. Yes, I know a lot of that is tied to armor and weapon that they are using. But, for your hero is is only partially tied to that. I believe the same should be said for units. My level 21 cavalry should not have 300 hp and 7 attack. They had 7 attack decades ago when they were made. The rest of the units stats should scale also. Currently the game leaves out a lot of units from feeling effective by just bloating them into these hp ridden blobs. 

My solution would be every level that all units gain a small amount of hp, a small amount of damage, not weapon based, and a small amount of armor.

Maybe it equates to being 1 every two levels for the unit, however the balance works out. It should be to a point where a unit that is leveled up is in fact much stronger than a newly trained counterpart.

In addition to this, I would argue that heroes should require more experience to reach each level, or that xp gain perks be slightly reduced. I think it is safe to say that many people go for a rank or more in 'potential' when they get the chance. This results in huge xp differences between the hero and his army (or lack there of).

Reply #20 Top


Most of my work started out with a post like this aimed at equalizing the hero-troop issue. I have solved the problem rather well, though there is certainly more than one way to do it. I have tried to incorporate many different elements of the game to balance the issue. Spells, techs, XP level, and improvements all help make troops and heroes play on equal ground. I even set up each faction to work in the system wildly different. To complicate things more, I felt that heroes and troops was not enough variety. I also added Sovereigns and monsters so we have four main units to think about with balance. Sovs are uber heroes and summons can get epic power late into the game. Things start to snowball from there. Let's hope it snowballs the same way for the devs come beta 5.

Reply #21 Top

I see a lot of posts suggesting we slow down the exp rate for champions.  I see the problem on the other side.  We're giving too much exp for some of the monsters and not enough for fighting against AI troops.  Some of the monsters are rather easy to take down, but they give enough exp to advance your hero 2-4 levels in one shot.  On the other hand, you can fight a city with 9+ troops and walk away without a level upgrade.  So let's keep this in mind when trying to come up with the right balance in Beta 5.

Reply #22 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 21

Most of my work started out with a post like this aimed at equalizing the hero-troop issue. I have solved the problem rather well, though there is certainly more than one way to do it. I have tried to incorporate many different elements of the game to balance the issue. Spells, techs, XP level, and improvements all help make troops and heroes play on equal ground. I even set up each faction to work in the system wildly different. To complicate things more, I felt that heroes and troops was not enough variety. I also added Sovereigns and monsters so we have four main units to think about with balance. Sovs are uber heroes and summons can get epic power late into the game. Things start to snowball from there. Let's hope it snowballs the same way for the devs come beta 5.
End of seanw3's quote

Yeah. This problem needs the package approach: improving trained units and monsters (improving base stats, adding attack/defence/etc per level, improving weapons/armors in technologies, lowering production/resource costs), nerfing champions (nerfing spells, XP, quest rewards: weapons/armors, horses). In the end champions should be weaker than armies of trained units. Champions should be army leaders rather than one man armies.

Reply #23 Top

Quoting Trojasmic, reply 22
I see a lot of posts suggesting we slow down the exp rate for champions.  I see the problem on the other side.  We're giving too much exp for some of the monsters and not enough for fighting against AI troops.  Some of the monsters are rather easy to take down, but they give enough exp to advance your hero 2-4 levels in one shot.  On the other hand, you can fight a city with 9+ troops and walk away without a level upgrade.  So let's keep this in mind when trying to come up with the right balance in Beta 5.
End of Trojasmic's quote

That is a great point that I had not taken into much consideration. Monsters are pretty much exclusively viewed as 'the way to level up' and it should be a little bit more spread out as having huge wars should be strengthening to the units that manage to survive. After all, I'm all for some survival of the fittest, but currently it is more like survival of who can kill the most wildlife...