Some ideas of balancing ranged weapons

from Elemental Forums

I dont know if ideas like these are already given but I think that something in those lines can improve the situation with ranged weapons in the game. Before I begin I wish to apologize for my bad english - it is not my native language.

The idea is simple: for ranged weapons to be a meaningful option in combat, they have to be strong enough in different phases of the game (beginning, midgame, endgame). That obviously can be accomplished just by giving them a higher attack rating and several different versions of ranged weapons for defeating higher defense ratings in midgame and endgame.
The obvious problem with this simple solution is that ranged weapons can become overpowered so they have to be balanced in some way. I think that it is better for them to stay relatively powerful (as opposed to nerfing their power) but to limit the number of uses per combat. This can be accomplished by introducing the ammo (or "charges" so to limit the number of possible ranged attacks per combat). That way ranged weapons will have good use in combat but the player have to decide what target he should engage (is it worthed waisting one ammo point on that?), should he spare some ammo points if combat is too long etc. Melee-units will have advantage of not being limited in that way.
Something in that direction is the initiative penalty already in the game (reduces the frequency of uses of ranged weapons in combat), but I think that the ammo factor is better solution (of course that should be balanced against duration of typical combats so to be really limiting factor). It was used in Master of Magic (and many other games with tactical combat) and I think that balanced ranged combat nice: they are powerful but that power is limited by number of uses per specific combat.
Of course this creates another problem - what ranged weapon unit will do when it uses up all the ammo? One solution is to give a possibility for a unit to switch weapons (if it is equipped whit ranged weapon to have possibility of additional "light" melee weapon: one handed like knife, short sword or some small axe) or every time when the unit is engaged in melee (or when all the ammo is used up) it automaticaly "switched" to this weapon. The second solution is to give every ranged weapon base melee form of attack which not use the ammo and have limited attack so when the unit is used up all of the ammo it still have some very limited military power. Or every ranged weapon to have base melee attack combined with additional abilities that have number of uses (charges or ammo) and are ranged so when ranged options are exhausted or unit is engaged in melee it will use the base (melee) attack.
I think that probably the last option can be easily used in current engine (but I might be wrong off course).
Off course that will give some possibilities for new spells like "steal ammo" (reduce ammo of the ranged unit) or "give ammo" (give additional ammo to ranged unit).

Ranged combat can be additionally "spiced" by giving more and different ranged weapons with different "special options" or form of attacks (maybe something like this is already proposed somewhere). Off course the special form of attack can be tied not to weapons but to "traits" given to archer-units.
My idea is to give several different non-magical ranged weapons so in designing a ranged unit to have additional options:

1. a bow "line" - piercing damage (like now), "point blank shot" (or "aimed shot") ability - used in up to 2 or 3 battle squares and ignoring up to 50% of target defense and +10 to hit; "rain of arrows" ability - hit area of 3 x 3 squares for 3/4 of normal damage and uses 3 points of ammo.

2. a sling "line" (sling, staff sling) - basic weapons doing small blunt damage, with ability to replenish ammo.

3. a crossbow "line" - powerful blunt or piercing damage, ignore up to 75% of target defense, huge initiative penalty (with some form of early black powder weapon on top of the line, which will do blunt and fire damage)

This is just one possible list (the numbers are subject to balance):

1.
[ranged weapon:] sling (for trowing stones)
[initiative:] +3
[type of attack:/value:] blunt / 2
[ammo:] 16
[melee form of attack:] blunt / 1
[abilities:]
1. gather stones - lose one "turn" (action) and replenish 4 ammo points (not above maximum)
2. rain of stones - distance up to 3 squares - hit area of 2 by 2 squares for 3 blunt attack, spend 6 points of ammo, cooldown 4
[tech level:] start of the game

2.
[ranged weapon:] staff sling (for trowing stones
[initiative:] +1
[type of attack:/value:] blunt / 4
[ammo:] 14
[melee form of attack:] blunt / 3
[abilities:]
1. gather stones - lose one "turn" (action) and replenish 4 ammo points (not above maximum)
[tech level:] early in the game

3.
[ranged weapon:] shortbow
[initiative:] +1
[type of attack:/value:] pierce / 5
[ammo:] 14
[melee form of attack:] slash / 2
[abilities:]
1. aimed shot - distance 2 squares (of tactical map) - ignore 10% of target defenses, +10 to hit, cooldown 3
2. double shot - distance up to 4 squares - 2 attacks, spend two points of ammo, cooldown 4
[tech level:] early in the game

4.
[melee weapon:] javelin (one hand) ammo (for trowing) 4
[initiative:] +2
[melee form of attack:] pierce / 8
[abilities:]
trow javelin: pierce 12, range 3, cooldown 2
crippling trow: pierce 8, -6 to initiative and -20% of defense of target for 2 "rounds", range 2, cooldown 4
[tech level:] early in the game

5.
[melee weapon:] trowing axe (one hand) ammo for trowing 6
[initiative:] +3
[melee form of attack:] slash / 6
[abilities:]
trow axe: slash 8, range 3
double trow: slash 14, range 2, cooldown 3, spend two ammo points
[tech level:] early in the game

6.
[ranged weapon:] yew bow
[initiative:] 0
[type of attack:/value:] pierce / 12
[ammo:] 12
[melee form of attack:] slash / 4
[abilities:]
1. aimed shot - distance 2 squares (of tactical map) - ignore 25% of target defenses, cooldown 2
2. barrage - distance up to 3 squares, hit area of 3 x 3 squares for 8 pierce damage with -10 to hit, spend 3 points of ammo, cooldown 4
3. flame arrow - distance up to 4 squares, 6 pierce + 6 fire damage, 1 point of ammo, cooldown 6.
[tech level:] early in the game

7.
[ranged weapon:] yew longbow
[initiative:] -3
[type of attack:/value:] pierce / 20
[ammo:] 9
[melee form of attack:] slash / 6
[abilities:]
1. aimed shot - distance 2 squares (of tactical map) - ignore 40% of target defences, +10 to hit, cooldown 2
2. barrage - distance up to 4 squares, hit area of 3 x 3 squares for 12 pierce damage with -10 to hit, spend 3 points of ammo, cooldown 4
3. flame arrow - distance up to 6 squares, 8 pierce + 12 fire damage, 1 point of ammo, cooldown 6.
4. bodkin arrow - distance up to 3 squares, 16 blunt damage, ignore 50% of target defense, cooldown 4.
5. howling arrow - only usable against mounted troops or heroes, distance up to 4 squares, 16 piercing damage, -25% to target defense, -25% to target initiative for two "turns"
[tech level:] midgame
[special:] can not be equipped by mounted units or heroes

8.
[ranged weapon:] composite bow
[initiative:] +1
[type of attack:/value:] pierce / 16
[ammo:] 12
[melee form of attack:] slash / 6
[abilities:]
1. aimed shot - distance 2 squares (of tactical map) - ignore 25% of target defenses, +10 to hit, cooldown 2
2. double shot - distance up to 2 squares - 2 consecutive attacks for 12 pierce, spend to points of ammo, cooldown 4
3. poisoned arrow - distance up to 3 squares, 12 poison damage for 6 turns, 1 point of ammo, cooldown 6
[tech level:] midgame

9.
[ranged weapon:] crossbow
[initiative:] -4
[type of attack:/value:] pierce/ 12, ignore 50% of target defense
[ammo:] 14
[melee form of attack:] blunt / 6
[abilities:]
1. careful shot - distance 2 squares (of tactical map) - ignore 100% of target defenses, cooldown 2
2. barrage - distance up to 3 squares, hit area of 2 x 2 squares for 8 blunt damage, spend 4 points of ammo, cooldown 6
3. ball shot (using stone ball) - distance up to 3 squares, 15 blunt damage, cool down 3.
[tech level:] midgame

10.
[ranged weapon:] steel crossbow
[initiative:] -12
[type of attack:/value:] pierce / 30, ignore 60% of target defense
[ammo:] 10
[melee form of attack:] blunt / 12
[abilities:]
1. devastating shot - distance 2 squares (of tactical map) - ignore 100% of target defences, 40 blunt damage, cooldown 4
2. preparation - +20 initiative for two "rounds", cooldown 8
3. pavise shield - cant move, + 20 defense from all missile attacks (or +25 to dodge only from missile attacks)
4. ball shot (using stone ball) - distance up to 4 squares, 40 blunt damage, cool down 3.
[tech level:] late midgame to lategame

11.
[ranged weapon:] thunderstick
[initiative:] -16
[type of attack:/value:] blunt / 30 + fire / 30, ignore 50% of target defense
[ammo:] 8
[melee form of attack:] blunt / 20
[abilities:]
1. devastating salvo - distance up to 3 squares (of tactical map) hit to consecutive squares, -10 to hit, cooldown 6q two points of ammo, +50% damage.
2. prepared position - cant move, +20 defence form all attacks, +2 counter attacks.
3. shiper shot - distance up to 4 squares, +25 to hit, ignore 100% of target defence, cooldown 4.
[tech level:] lategame

3,843 views 13 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Hi Haladin, firstly you shouldn't apologise for 'bad' english, I found this post to be highly articulate and better written than the majority of us native speakers.

Anyway with regard to your comments on ranged weapons the issue was discussed alot earlier in the beta and the reason they stuck high initiative penalties and low damage on the ranged weapons was to tackle issues with kiting.

With a mount, high initiative and a bow it was possible to take down all kinds of powerful monsters so they stuck -8 initiative penalties on bows to shut down that strategy. During those discussions ammo and special ammo came up but ultimately the devs chose to go in the direction that they have.

I personally would like to see some bow perks and special ammos but this is the kind of stuff that will be tackled in a mod or expansion pack I think.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I would like to see bows get +A attack per level.  Since more HP doesn't scale well for a pure damage dealer that a bowmen is.

The +A per level should probably be .25-.75 for the first bow, .5-1 for the second and 1-2 for the advanced or legendary bows.

 

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Ranged weapons are really tough to balance because with a horse and a bow and some initiative boosters you can shoot people a lot and not get attacked much.

I think a fun way to balance them is give them a casting time like spells so you sit still for a round and then shoot twice. That would prevent kiting but let you have strong and useful weapons.

Mike.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

We have already discussed this idea in great detail. I would repost my expert analysis and persuasive prose as to why it does not work for this game, but the devs have already shot down the idea. No need to hash up old debates.

The best way to keep archers in check is to allow them to do a small amount of armor piercing damage or more damage in general. Of course, we will see which one the devs choose come beta 5.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top


I do think there needs to be a ammo cap for a battle on bow weapons.  It would be even better if they could use a secondary weapon, but that weapon has to be a dagger or possibly a short sword.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

I think its odd that are peasant bowmen are such great shots from horseback. Why not require a trait for that? 

 

 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

There's a really easy way to counter kiting: make shooting after moving impossible. problem solved.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

I might be the only one who thinks this, but I think the range weapons are balanced okay.  My issue is that I would like more one-throw options like the throwing knives (btw, throwing knives need 1 more tile of range).  And I would like to find more ranged weapons as treasure items.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top


Holy wall of text batman.  I think ranged were carefully placed to be equal to groups of melee weapons.  Which is okay, so long as both get upped somewhat.

I also agree about the throwing knives.  You will get zinged a hundred times with them long before you can equip troops with your own or buy them.

 

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top


Bow damage is currently 25% of weapons at the same tier if you look at it per round. They only compete well against unarmored units. So, I guess they work great on alot of the crap units the AI builds and every monster and his mother. Anyone see a balance issue staring them in the face?

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

IMO, ammo is a really bad idea.  Too much micromanagement for absolutely no fun value.

To me the obvious solution is simply giving an accuracy penalty for range.  For instance, up to 3 tiles away: 0 penalty; for each tile after that, -5% accuracy per tile.

I do agree with bow-specific traits.  In fact, each weapon type (NOT damage type) should have it's own traits. 

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

I still say the best way to balance bows is to have 2 bows per tech; high-init, low-damage shortbows, and high-damage, low-init longbows.  But that will probably have to be modded in.  I've been waiting to try to mod anything until the devs release their tools, mostly because xml scares me (I know nothing about code).

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Thanks to all for the answers.

"We have already discussed this idea in great detail (...) No need to hash up old debates."

Seanw3, I`m very sorry for bringing up an all debate. I didn't mean to "wake" an old debate. Of course, the idea is simple so I should have supposed that you already discussed it and came to conclusion. Maybe I just have to mod it (it should be possible) and see for myself.

Just out of curiosity - if it didn't bother you too much - can you give me a link to that discussion and your arguments. For me it will be interesting reading, thanks in advance.

"They only compete well against unarmored units. So, I guess they work great on alot of the crap units the AI builds and every monster and his mother."

Seanw3, I think that ranged weapons should be an option even when most units in the battlefield are armored (have high defense). Of course, armor and shields should matter so on option is to have different class of ranged weapons for that case (as example - heavy crossbows - big initiative penalty (they are slow to reload) and huge armor (defense) reduction, maybe combined with relatively low damage and higher chance for critical strike). Or even better - to have some unique property of ranged (arrow) attacks, that will be viable even against heavy armored opponent. Maybe temporary initiative and movement penalty when hitting the target successfully (with real life explanation: target under fire have to slow down and hide behind the shields or take cover).

 

"To me the obvious solution is simply giving an accuracy penalty for range.  For instance, up to 3 tiles away: 0 penalty; for each tile after that, -5% accuracy per tile."

mqpiffle, I also think that something in that direction will be good, but I doubted that this could be modded so probably it will require code changes. For that reason I proposed some abilities (or even better - unit traits) that make shooting in close range a better option (increased damage or defense reduction, combined with to hit bonus).

Maybe it is good idea to introduce a to hit penalty (big enough) for shooting after moving. Or/and make this thing possible only as a separate unit trait. If there is enough different and interesting traits for ranged units it will be possible to make more interesting designs. Maybe there should be a restriction on the ranged weapons that a mounted unit may use (only small bows, no crossbows (if they are included in the game - maybe with some "high" technology for reload device that can be used on horseback like cranequin).

 

PS In some sense initiative penalty of ranged weapons and ammo (number of uses) are doing the same thing - limiting the damage output of the unit. The main difference is that first option distribute damage evenly and second "concentrate" it in one part of the combat (if properly balanced) and introduce another level of decision making ("should I use one of the limited precious attacks on that or the other target?"). Of course, the first option (initiative penalty) is simpler and need less balancing.