[Idea] Elemental Allegiance in character creation

The purpose

There are two things in the game that, I believe, could be improved. Both have to do with Elements.

The first one, as I noted in a previous post, is that shards have a pretty passive role as of now: you find them, you build a shrine, you upgrade it. So, the interaction is quite limited. This is not bad in itself, since they are a resource, but since the game name is Elemental, I think it would be more fun if we could interact with shards.

The second one, is a stronger role of Elements during the character creation phase. Maybe it’s because I am MoM fan, but I think that playing a Fire mage should feel very different than playing an earth or water mage. And not only because you use different spells. Now a fire mage is different from a water mage just because you pick fire magic at the beginning... but you can develop the same skills as you exp your sovereign in-game, so this choice during the character creation does not define so much your sovereign.

So, here is what I propose.

 

[EDIT> The Idea: Elemental Allegiance, Shortened Version]

You can decide to pledge alliegiance to a single Element, e.g. Fire, by spending character points. This implies that:

1. You cannot exploit shards of the opposite element (Water), but you can destroy them }:)

2. You and your champs cannot use Water spells

3. You can mutate Air/Earth shards into somewhat inefficient Minor Fire Shards, to augment the bonus on fire magic at a cost in terms of mana and loss of efficiency. Balance here is paramount so that mutating shards is not always better.

4. You are more skilled in Fire Magic and get special stuff

You can also choose not to ally to any element and be a Generalist, which is the same as it is now.

[end of EDIT]

 

The idea: Elemental Allegiance

In this idea, the first step of the character creation is to choose whether your character has sworn allegiance to a given Element or not. If not, he is a Generalist, which is basically the same as it is now, with the twist that one earns special abilities if during the game it manages to control at least one shard of each basic element (Fire, Water, Air and Earth). It could be that all spells have reduced cost, or something more creative. The other option is where things change quite a bit. Swearing Allegiance to an Element costs 2 points, grants one level of spell knowledge in the chosen Element (hence the net cost of the option is 1 point) and gives additional powers and limitation to a character, as described below. In the following, I will use Fire to refer to any of the four basic elements, Water to refer to its opposite, and Air/Earth to refer to the other basic elements.

  1. A Firesworn sovereign despises its opposite element, Water, and has sworn never to use it, nor to allow his champions to use it. Hence, all water spells are forbidden for the entire game. He also considers disdainful building shrines on Water shards, which cannot therefore be exploited as normal. However, he can destroy them. In fact, Firesworns are given an Extinguish Water spell that can be cast on any Water shard in their ZoC, and instantly generates 50 mana by absorbing the energy contained in the core of the shard and transforming it into a (useless) water splinter. Later on, they can discover the Consume Water spell, that consumes a Water shard in 50 turns generating 3 mana per turn. [EDIT: destroy a Water shard and you collect an Elemental Spirit]
  2. A Firesworn is given the power to convert shards of the neutral elements Air/Earth into a Minor Fire Shard, which differs from a Fire shard in that it can support only 1st and 2nd level buildings once the appropriate techs are discovered. This mutation is obtained by casting a Will of Fire spell on an Earth-Air shard in the player ZoC. The mutation takes 20 turns to take effect, in which the shard is passive and no mana is generated. If the player loses control of the shard during this time, the spell fizzles. Shards which already have temples and shrines built on them roll a resist check once the 20 turns have elapsed, so that the spell can fail. Clearly, this allows a Firesworn to focus all its spell power on Fire, but also leaves him the option to exploit Air/Earth shards as usual. [EDIT: you consume an elemental spirit whenever you mutate a shard]
  3. A Firesworn  is naturally more skilled in the use of Fire magic. One can think of many advantages. For example, he gains +2 initiative on fire spells cast during tactical battles and has +20 Spell Mastery on Fire spells. He is granted additional fire spells at the beginning of the game (e.g. one random spell for each level). Firesworns can build a Fire Obelisk in their capital, available right from the beginning, which counts as a fire shard for spell-boosting purposes. Firesworns automatically summon a lesser fire elemental at the beginning of each battle at no mana cost, for the duration of the battle. Firesworns’ capital is granted, at the beginning of the game, with a free, fire city spell, which does not count for the maximum number of spells on that city. Once a Firesworn controls 5 Fire shards, he can summon a powerful Fire creature, e.g. a Balrog, normally unavailable. One can come up with all sort of bonuses here to make it fun and balanced.

I like points 1 and 2 in particular since they also change the way shards are used in the game. Note that one can destroy or mutate shards on enemy territories by flipping outposts, which expands strategic decisions quite a lot. My feeling is that the option to swear allegiance to an Element would make a much bigger difference in playing a Fire mage as opposed to an Earth mage, thus enhancing the already high replay-ability that the game seems to have. One can swear allegiance to two non-opposite Elements, with interesting strategic implications (e.g. swearing allegiance to Fire and Earth gives different options regarding Water shards, which can be destroyed, exploited in the classic way or mutated into Minor Earth Shards).

So far, I have not discussed Life/Death Elements. One option is to treat them as Spiritual Elements, as opposed to the four Material Elements, and hence give them a different role. This could be not to allow allegiance to these elements, since belonging to Kingdoms or Empires is already a choice of allegiance. Alternatively, one could make sovreigns initially unable to use Life/Death magic, and open up this Elements only of one chooses to swear allegiance to them. So, initially, a Kingdom sovereign would be able to use only the four basic elements, and in order to use Life magic should spend 2 points (1 net) and swear allegiance to the Life Element. This way, Life/Death magic must be earned, making for even more possibilities during character creation. This means that if you don't spend any point in Elemental Allegiances, you can only use the four basic elements provided that you have the required abilities.

Finally, let me say that all these changes seem to require only minor changes to the game as it is now, with the only exception of the AI programming. For what I have seen, the game now seems very good, and I hope with this brainstorming to provide useful ideas for the Devs to make it even better.

Looking forward to hearing your comments on this idea guys! (even simple comments on whether you like it or not)

14,350 views 15 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think 1) and 2) are a great idea, but it should not be an option. It should always work like this. 3) should be avaible as traits that have fire as a prerequisite.

Reply #2 Top

I'm glad you liked it. And I think your suggestions are interesting.

If allegiance to some element is to be made mandatory, which could also be nice, then it could work like this. As you begin char creation, you are given an Elemental Prysm.

Place it on one of the four basic Elements, and the above applies. Only, you cannot use life/death since by default they are not available.

Place it on Life (kingdom) or death (empires), and you'll be allowed to use that element. Allegiance to life/death also allows to change any shard into life/death, but the process is less efficient than with the basic elements: this could be that it takes more turns to convert a shard (which is meanwhile not generating mana) and that the conversion spell has a cooldown.

Since allowing allegiance to two elements has interesting implications, I would still leave the option to buy a second Elemental Prysm with points.

On point 3 being talents to be bought, I think it w be nice since it could expand the range of potential character choices. But I'd make one or two talents come for free with the allegiance, since it should make one better at using one's element of choice even if no further points are spent.

 

Reply #3 Top


Since 120 people clicked on the post but just 1 replied, I was wondering why. Was it because...

1. you thought this to be too big a change at this point of the Beta

2. it was too long to read :P

3. it was uninteresting, or not needed a change

4. you just felt there was not much to add

or what?

Thanks in advance guys for the feedback.

Reply #4 Top

It's a proposal to re-design the magic system in a very different way and I see no actual benefit to it - it wouldn't make the game more fun to play. A big part now is replayability from each game - champions and shards are random. You can't go into the game expecting to dominate one type of magic. That's good. And you want to take it away.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting marionesi, reply 3

Since 120 people clicked on the post but just 1 replied, I was wondering why. Was it because...

1. you thought this to be too big a change at this point of the Beta

2. it was too long to read

3. it was uninteresting, or not needed a change

4. you just felt there was not much to add

or what?

Thanks in advance guys for the feedback.
End of marionesi's quote

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Yes

4) While I agree that each book meant a lot more in MoM than it currently does in FE, I didn't like the exclusivity. I don't see the changes as particularly fun or something I'd want either. 

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Heavenfall, reply 5
A big part now is replayability from each game - champions and shards are random. You can't go into the game expecting to dominate one type of magic. That's good. And you want to take it away.
End of Heavenfall's quote

I respectfully disagree :) I do see why offering an easy option to mutate all shards into the same type could make the game less interesting, and I agree. My purpose was quite different, and it's probably my fault if I have been misunderstood. I propose the make shard mutation possible. I propose to make it dependant on shard type, and to come with drawbacks. Whether this is always the best viable strategy or not is a matter of balance, and I agree that a fun design would not make it always better. Some games I'd play a Generalist as it is now. Other times, I'd spend points to be a specialist and mutate some shards during the game, depending on which ones I find. If well implemented, I believe this would actually expand the possible games one can play, as it does having more races to choose from.

Besides, this would also address some of the problems with the magic system denounced in another recent post(https://forums.elementalgame.com/424757/page/2/#replies)

 

Reply #7 Top

Marionesi, what you propose is to my understanding a burned earth approach. If the AI were to properly leverage this philosophy, any opposite shards in its territory would be gone/lost, making a quick conquer of that sovereign a high priority. That is something I don't like at all.

Also, as stated above it removes to a high degree the fortune factor (lucky find of shards I like/need) - right now I have high hopes whenever I push back the black area for some good shards I need, a large part of my fun. With this it would all be the same and I would not be dependant on the luck factor anymore, just mulch it all into what I want -> no adaptation required -> less decisions, just same old on every shard -> less fun

Last but not least I think the mage sovereigns are quite powerful as it is, they don't need any buff (blizzard will level any hireling army )

 

Reply #8 Top

Quoting Gorshmak, reply 8
Marionesi, what you propose is to my understanding a burned earth approach. If the AI were to properly leverage this philosophy, any opposite shards in its territory would be gone/lost, making a quick conquer of that sovereign a high priority. That is something I don't like at all.

Also, as stated above it removes to a high degree the fortune factor (lucky find of shards I like/need) - right now I have high hopes whenever I push back the black area for some good shards I need, a large part of my fun. With this it would all be the same and I would not be dependant on the luck factor anymore, just mulch it all into what I want -> no adaptation required -> less decisions, just same old on every shard -> less fun

Last but not least I think the mage sovereigns are quite powerful as it is, they don't need any buff (blizzard will level any hireling army )

 
End of Gorshmak's quote

I see your points. Here is what I think: 

1. Is it really a big problem if one of your opponents burns one fifth of his shards? Does it really change so much your strategic priorities?

2. I feel with my idea you still have the luck factor intact. Suppose you are a firesworn: you pray not to find water, which is of little use to you. You also pray to find Fire, since mutating an Earth/Fire shards is going to be much less efficient, in case you plan to change all the shards. In case you don't, it's the same as now. So again, maybe I did not do a great job at explaining my idea, but you can see how the luck factor is still there. Only, you can do something about it and, more importantly, you have a choice to make once you find a shard. A good design would make choice non-trivial. You take for granted than mutating the shard is better than not. I say, it depends on how you design it.

3. The power issue is a matter of balance, rather than a design issue.

I know I can sound like one that is defending his idea no matter what, but I assure you it's not my intention. I see the fear of people that "this will destroy the variety of the game, will make them look all the same". I understand this, but I think this is not what would happen. I just think what I propose, or a variation of it, is a way to enlarge the possibiliites of the game, which are now frozen in a pure luck issue, with little strategic interaction between you and the shards you find. Let's make something with them, I say. Let's give more flavor to sovereign creation, rather than just "I can cast 1st level fire spells" or "my units earn 25% more experience". Let's have something more tasty, more different, that has a significant impact on the way you play the game. This way, like picking a race, you will have a very different experience playing a generalist or a specialist, as well as fighting against one. You must consider that a player could burn your shards too. I don't think this is going to make games more similar or remove the fun, it seems quite the opposite. But I consider that my specific idea can be wrong or improved. Make mutations a technology in the late game. Make them limited (e.g. you can mutate a shard for every Water shard you destroy). Make them increasingly costly. But I say, make them possible.

Do you see my point? Or, maybe, I am just going mad  :)

EDIT: It is entirely possible that I am missing something here... just help me see it.

Reply #9 Top

It's possible that some intrepid modder might be modding something similar into the game and may perhaps call on you for further ideas when the first baby steps of the mod are ready to be released to the community.  *_*

Reply #10 Top


My 2 cents on this idea - I would consider it an interesting alternative over the current situation ONLY if (1) the allegiance brought some serious benefits to the mage in order to counteract its limitation, and (2) the ability to convert shards to your familiar element were a VERY expensive and difficult process - both to prevent abuse and also to simulate a major disruption in the global balance of magic.

In this way, the mage who decides to become allied to a specific element would have to face a significant choice - limited shard availability versus great power in his element...

However, I do think that any major change like this at this stage of the game causes several gameplay, balance and error-checking issues that are not worth the overall benefit, and therefore should not be pursued except in a mod or expansion.

Reply #11 Top

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 10
It's possible that some intrepid modder might be modding something similar into the game and may perhaps call on you for further ideas when the first baby steps of the mod are ready to be released to the community. 
End of mqpiffle's quote

Glad to hear that :D

Reply #12 Top

Well I like your idea. It can add a lot of flavour that the whole random availability of shards could never match.

As a side note, yesterday I came across this article. How awesome would it be to have themed armies like you see in there? They could be an option if you combine an elemental allegiance with a focus on summoning and/or enchanting units.

Reply #13 Top

Quoting Satrhan, reply 13
Well I like your idea. It can add a lot of flavour that the whole random availability of shards could never match.

As a side note, yesterday I came across this article. How awesome would it be to have themed armies like you see in there? They could be an option if you combine an elemental allegiance with a focus on summoning and/or enchanting units.
End of Satrhan's quote

Themed armies will be a core feature of unique units for the stormworld mod factions, although they'll be based on faction rather than magic. For seanw3's and my mod Goetia, summons will be based on what schools are used to summon the creatures.

Reply #14 Top

Quoting Satrhan, reply 13
Well I like your idea. It can add a lot of flavour that the whole random availability of shards could never match.

As a side note, yesterday I came across this article. How awesome would it be to have themed armies like you see in there? They could be an option if you combine an elemental allegiance with a focus on summoning and/or enchanting units.
End of Satrhan's quote

Thanks :) As HF pointed out, allowing shard mutation can be tricky. Hopefully, a good design will make for interesting trade offs 

Reply #15 Top

i love specialization more that the actual jack of all trades so i agree with op idea and kinda like it