[0.952 Bug/Exploit] Giant Form, Growth, Swordsman Stack, 340 Attack

seems much more like a problem with swordsman abilities though.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Very true, that's definitely OP in the combo as well.  Without the spells though, swordsman is just +45%, or +15.2.

I added an 8-fire shard burning blade, but that just added 16, it didn't affect the multipliers

With Life 3 and Earth 5 this sounds to me like an allright effect to be honest. Good combinations especially if you stack so many should lead to extraordinary results...

Not sure where the bug / exploit is, if anything that would be a balance issue whouldn't it?

Its probably calculated wrong.
since if you do 10 damage, +20% with swordmaster, it will end up at 12.
Giving a benefit of +6 by growth, the swordmaster trait now also gives and additional +1.2 cause it refreshes to meet the new damage.

Thats my theory anyways.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Something doesn't add up, if those numbers are to be believed. I think all multipliers should apply to the base attack value; it makes more sense and simplifies the maths. That looks like a warrior with lethal4, so we should have:

13 + 3[warrior] + 2[lethal1] + 3[lethal2] + 4[lethal3] + 5[lethal4] + 10[howl] = 40

40 * (100%[base] + 10% + 15% + 20% + 25%[armory] + 50%[growth] + 100%[giant]) = 40 * 320% = 128

It seems that multipliers might be applied multiple times. Swordman and armory bonuses are applied to a base of 200, but how did we get from 13 -> 200 without multiplicative bonuses?

[edited: formatting]

Ah now I see what you mean. Thanks for the explanation.

On the Other hand factors in a multi-factor multiplication are freely switchable by maths if I'm not utterly mistaken so the popup might actually be right and the assumption that the base from which to count of is 10 a wrong one?

(Which whould mean the display is calculated from the final result as a from 100% calculation. Not incorrect by math but a very awkward way to display the maths I give you that...)

Before further confusion comes up: Multipliers in Elemental stacked from day one and the system never changed if I'm not utterly mistaken.

That sounds right, it isn't a physical/cutting attack.

If I'm not mistaken the calculation is done like this: (base value + fixed bonus 1 + fixed bonus 2 + ect. ...) * (100% + Multiplier percentage 1) * (100% + Multiplier percentage 2) * ect...
So add up base value plus all fixed bona and then multiply by each multiplier percentage

If the display is the result each item produces as part of the final equation the numbers might very well add up to the above.


And Indeed it might very well be that just base damage values are multiplied to further add to the confusing display.

Here's hoping they polish up the tooltips well enough before actual steam release. Could possibly pour a whole week just into the number display polish to make all of it easily acessible to avoid many people scratching their head...

Even with stacking multipliers (which, in my humble opinion, aren't the right way to implement multipliers if you are to have any hope of balancing things), I can't seem to get the same result:

40 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.2 * 1.25 * 1.5 * 2.0 = 227.7

Alternatively, if howl isn't being treated as part of the physical base:

30 * 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.2 * 1.25 * 1.5 * 2.0 + 10 = 180.8

No matter how I turn it, I can't get to 340. Am I missing some other big multiplier here?

Maybe your base value is off?

Stuff like Attack Books, Attack Traits (for example from path of the warrior) all factor in. I found most of the stuff in FE actually roughly adds up but some of the stuff is truly badly documented. (Like very visibly seen here.)

I guess you get a better chance to get close to the result if you take the 340 as the base and invert the calculation to see what whould be the base to get to 340 and try to get together how that base could have come about (provided you did get all of the multipliers)

Bug is of course not out of the question but given the problems with bad documentation and explanation of numbers in both Elemental and FE the calculation being right is actually more likely...

Maybe include a save so someone with coding skills can have a look. Official or not...



About the way multipliers are handled in FE: It is what it is and seems to be the design philosophy beyond both the math of FE and Elemental. Don't expect it to change. Mechanically and balance-wise the game still looks rather round allready compared to how other games who follow a different way compare.

That may be the case - then it would be

40 * 2 (giant) * 1.45 (swordsman) * 1.5 (growth) * 1.25 (armory) = 217

I don't have all those numbers in front of me anymore, so here's a new data point.  The hero now has 406 attack before howl

Skath Claw +13

Warrior +3

Lethal V +20

Base Attack = 36

In combat, he's at 62 + 20 Fire

Armory x1.25

Swordsman x1.45

36 + 36*0.25 + 36*0.1 + 36*0.15 + 36*0.2 = 36 + 9 + 3.6 + 5.4 + 7.2 = 62, which is right.

If I add giant form, my attack is now 200 + 20 fire

It should be

36 + 36*1 (giant form) + 36*0.25 + 36*0.1 + 36*0.15 + 36*0.2 = 36 + 36 + 9 + 3.6 + 5.4 + 7.2 = 97

But, if giant form is applied to the base, then it's

72 + 72*.25 + 72*.45 = 122.4

But Apprentice swordsman is adding 11.7, implying that my base is 117 attack?

Add +15 from Howl, attack is at 225 + 20 fire, so +15 from howl added 25, or 15*1.7=25 (the correct amount).

Add Growth and now he's at 433 Attack + 20 Fire.  Base attack is now 255  somehow (apprentice swordsman adds 25.5)

So, somehow, Growth and Giant form are affecting base attack.

Edit - this is a henchman, he hasn't gotten any books or anything.

Let someone with acess to the source code explain it (ideally someone who can convince Frogboy or Kael to make an understandable documentation for that to happen)

Other Option: The buffs actually not just multiply from the base value but actually multiply the multipliers? That whould actually seem mechanically silly though to be honest.

I tried buffing my wolf to have another data point

Great Wolf

Attack 39

Base 16

+15 from Howl

+7.8 from Armory (25%)

Add growth (I can't cast giant form on him)

Attack 63

Base 16

+34.4 Bonus (howl + growth)

+12.6 from Armory (25%)

Just to nitpick, 1.1 * 1.15 * 1.2 != 1.45. This is exactly why I consider multiplicative bonuses confusing - you can't do the maths quickly in your head any more, which makes in-game decisions difficult. How much is that 10% swordman trait worth, exactly?

Also just to point it out, I would wish they would clear out the rubbish UI.
They should not just show some buffs, and not others. Stack each serie of buffs in a manner that makes sense, like all the swordmaster traits into 1 group, then show me what that "Growth" boosted my damage with.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Do they multiply though?  I think those 3 add.

If you look at a unit with all 3, each one adds 10%, 15%, and 20% respectively.  It's just when giant form and growth get added that things get weird

Edit - got him an Athican Longsword and am at 753 attack !!!!

If some bonuses multiply and some add, then this is even more confusing than I originally thought. As per reply #6, with purely additive bonuses you should have had 128 attack, give or take, rather than 340. 

I still suspect that growth and giant form bonuses are being applied twice (or maybe even more than twice). Or perhaps this is a similar bug to the old assassin path damage multiplier, where a bonus is incorrectly being applied per level. I think I'll stop speculating now and let the devs take a look at it

You don't need to do the math in your head. When you click on a trait, it adds the predicted bonus to the stats on the left in green. As far as I can tell, all swordsman traits add up to +45% attack. A Skath claw would do about 19 damage with all of them. Add Lethal to that and it starts to get out of hand.  In my attempts at balance I have made each Lethal have a level prereq. So every 3-4 levels you get some more attack. I also nerfed all the weapons though so that unique ones are about the same as their standard type. 

One simple fix for Growth + Giant Growth is to make them not stack on each other. There is a handy tag to make sure spells like this don't combine for ridiculous values. 

Respectfully disagree. With multiplicative bonuses, future choices affect your past choices in non-obvious ways. With additive bonuses, +50% on 20 base is always +10, regardless of what else you pick. It you raise your base, you total increases in an easily predictable way. With multiplicative bonuses, picking +50% gives you +10 right now, but pick another +50% trait later on and now each of those traits is giving you +12.5 with the same base.

This is also why I feel it is harder to balance; multiplicative bonuses ensure that low multipliers remain insignificant, while high multipliers blow up super-linearly. Picking just one additional trait can suddenly mean a disproportional increase in final stats. Additive bonuses result in a more gradual progression and fewer steam-roller heroes. 
[Disclaimer: this is pure armchair speculation, I have no experience balancing games.]

Everybody keeps on mentioning that one trait or another (or a combination) is overpowered — growth, giant form, swordman traits, lethal traits — yet so far nobody has managed to demonstrate, with numbers, how all these traits add up to 340.

Just sayin'

By the way, I totally agree with this. Ideally, casting giant after growth should upgrade it, since it is in all aspects better, while casting growth after giant should have no effect. However, I suspect this isn't the only problem here.

I am unable to account for about 100 attack in that picture. I would need to see all the traits and equipment and then look at the xml for those values. One thing that is clear to me is that % bonuses scale too high. It is impossible to balance attacks when you use that sort of bonus. granular attack bonuses are much better for balance. 

Does the OP have a save available?

I'd say this is only true when they multiply; the scaling becomes super-linear. Percent-based bonuses are not a problem in themselves, it is how you apply them. If they are additive on top of base, they scale much better; that crazy +100% trait will still only give you an extra +1 for each +1 increase to base, hardly game breaking. This is something I feel CiV has done very well.

Hey seanw - I do - it's 

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8936258/QuickSave.EleSav

It's the henchman with my sovereign.