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Derek, please fix these 27 crappy spells

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Derek, please fix these 27 crappy spells

from Elemental Forums

Here's an A-Z of 27 crappy spells that aren't worth using in their current state and Derek I'm appealing to you to fix these before the game's released to the public - I did consider adding some more to this list, but these are the real stinkers - so without further ado; the 27 crappy spells:

 

1) Antipathy - 100 mana to cause mild unrest - garbage

2) Avarice - 200 mana for a mild gold boost that can be equalled with a couple of markets - garbage

3) Battlecry - 72 mana plus casting time feels overcosted to me compared to many other tactical spells

4) Birth of summer/bloom of twilight - You have to get to earth 5 (a level 12 champ?) to create a few extra plots for cities when you probably have plenty at this stage - too overcosted for what it is at that stage in the game

5) Bless city - 500 mana for a tiny improvement in unrest - possibly the worst spell of the bunch

6) Blight - 400 mana for no net gain as it hits your cities too - why bother?

7) Blood rage - this is your reward for getting a champ to death 5? You can get far better effects with burning blade for a fraction of the mana

8) Broken loyalties - I've never seen this spell cast but 500 mana is too much for any spell other than the spell of mastery (do you get the troops in the city too?) - it's a good idea but currently way overpriced

9) Celerity - you're reward for getting a champ to air5 - woohoo

10) Crusade - 340 mana is overpriced for what it is, 180 would be more appropriate

11) Curgen's volcano - 500 mana is way too much

12) Curse city - this spell holds joint honours with bless city as the crappiest spell

13) Destiny's gift - actually maybe this deserves the title of crappiest spell?

14) Destiny's insight - 25xp for 250 mana is worthless

15) Dispel enchantment - overpriced - this should be able to target enemy units too

16) Earthquake - overpriced - but a better level 5 spell than the junk that death gets

17) Firestorm - overpriced, especially compared to pillar of fire

18) Flamedart - this unfortunate spell seems to get nerfed again and again - it's rubbish for a low level champ and it's supposed to be a starting spell EDIT: OK this spell is much better late game for specialist sovs, although I still think it's a little too expensive

19) Frozen bones - 200 mana for a very minor effect - trash

20) Incinerate city - cool name so you'd think cool effect right? Unfortunately this is one of the worst of the bunch

21) Ineluctable vision - revealing the map is nice but this is overpriced

22) Infernal covenant - I permanently kill my champ to get a demon for 1 battle - where's the benefit to that? (I bet the demon has like 20hp anyway)

23) Lower land - overpriced for what it is

24) Nature's call - this could do with a beefier summon, maybe stick a few levels on the summoned crits?

25) Raise land - overpriced

26) Sacrifice - this is the other 'reward' for getting to death 5 - kill all your population for a small amount of mana gain - how about upping the mana you get from killing pop - after all, you've had to level up a champ to death 5 to get this spell in the first place

27) Wall of fire - good concept but overpriced, you have to use an essence slot for this too I think

 

EDIT 28) Alchemy - 100 mana for 100 gold is a bad trade - especially for a spell you have to quest for

 

So Derek, please fix these stinky spells - there are some good concepts here that are poorly executed. You did great stuff with the magic system from FFH so I know that you can turn these spells around too. It would be a real shame if we got to final release and these spells still remain unused and unloved. After all we don't want them to be crappy, we want them to be cool

12,520 views 36 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

It depends on how you play. A magic based race like Pariden needs to rely on constant unit enchantments to stay competitive. Competitive is a key word in this discussion because currently the AI can be beaten without using enchantments or magic in general. The AI cannot even fight back with enchantments or strategic spells. There should be room for Pariden to be casting powerful damage spells each turn. They should also be able to use a few choice enchantments on their units. Then they need to be able to save up for those really big spells. Most factions only save up for big spells, aside for the occasional fireball or haste. It is more a dysfunction in the AI's behavior than it is that we are getting too much mana. We simply are never forced to use it.

Ideally the AI will be taught to enchant to its magic strengths, which will force us to do likewise. With just 10 troops having Regeneration, you are set back 10 mana per turn plus the casting cost. Then factor in that each and every hero will need many more and you could estimate another 15 mana. So right there we need 25 just to stay afloat against the AI. Currently I am averaging 35 mana or so by turn 200. That is without too many Conclaves, but my games allow for mana specialization to increase that to somewhere around 60. That gives me on average an extra 20 mana per turn which I save up for those permanent bonus spells. 

The problem I see is that +1 attack costs about the same as Curgen's Volcano. A spell that can wipe out an entire city and pretty much win you the game needs to cost at least 1000 mana. Small permanent bonuses should cost closer to 200. Many more spells should be added that cost tons of mana, but off high rewards. Currently the later spells are not well balanced. Things like taking over a city and destroying one should require massive amounts of mana. There also needs to be a long casting time so that the opposing faction can attempt to stop them. I suspect we will see this kind of balance addressed in beta 5. The only spells that are probably on the table for change this cycle are city spells. 

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 26


The problem I see is that +1 attack costs about the same as Curgen's Volcano. A spell that can wipe out an entire city and pretty much win you the game needs to cost at least 1000 mana. 
End of seanw3's quote

 

Don't let the OP hear you say that.

 

You're right though. It's impossible to gauge this stuff until the AI learns to use magic (fingers crossed). At which point its going to become a radically different game.

However, I suspect you're overestimating how many units will need to be running buffs. I haven't played a Stardock game yet that I couldn't comfortably beat fighting on 2-3 fronts max, and tactical combat means you have a lot of control over who takes the hits.  Clearly an AI that knows how to use Pillar of Flame is going to complicate that somewhat, but your estimate sounds a bit high to me.

In any event, if Essence stays the same, I dont imagine Pariden hurting for mana under any scenario.  All I know is that there's a lot of +mana potential in the game I haven't tapped yet.  In the game at present, if you want mana, it's there for the taking, and none of the OP's spells are off the table from mana cost.

 

All speculation.  It's virtually impossible to say until things are rebalanced and we see how much the AI is capable of playing the same game as the player.

Siege of Centauri
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Choices... choices... choices... do you nuke a city with a volcano, or nuke em in tactical?

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

I am not sure changing some spells is the right way to go. Cities got a complete overhaul with great success - in my eyes the magic system is in need of a complete makeover as well.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bingjack, reply 11
As for Raise /Lower land, it's been some time since Ive used it, so you may be correct. But I know in earlier builds when it was more spammable, I did all sorts of exploity stuff with it, and mountains ceased to become an environmental barrier, since I could pass through them at will. In any event, it's a spell the AI will never be able to really use worth anything. It's completely a bonus to the player, and inherently unbalanced. As such, while I think the game is more interesting with it in it, I don't think it's something that should be too easily used by the player.
End of Bingjack's quote

See the break in the long mountain range which was protecting my city? Sneaky red AI should have listened to you!

 

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bingjack, reply 14

Yes. Flame dart cast by a character who isnt specced for offensive magic is a waste. Warlock, Evoker, Path of the Mage, etc. The right gear. And of course, shards.  Properly specced, its a very damaging spell, cheap-ish and safe to use, as opposed to burning hands, which is more efficient, but more dangerous to use.  You pay a price for the range.

Even so, nuking is a generally inefficient use of magic in the game. It's better to only do it in more dire situations, where you just need to win an encounter by throwing mana points at it.
End of Bingjack's quote

The most important part of Flame Dart and Burning Hands is that the damage is multiplied with the level. That makes these spells very weak early in the game and very strong late in the game.

I think nuking is very efficient if you use the right spells:

Blizzard with Mantel of the Oceans, Warlock, Path of the Mage, Evoker I and 2 water shards kills entire armies for 14 mana.

Flame Dart with a level 15 Sovereign, Warlock, Path of the Mage, Evoker I and 2 fire shards inflicts roughly 85 points of damage for 18 mana.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Wizard1200, reply 32

Quoting Bingjack, reply 14
Yes. Flame dart cast by a character who isnt specced for offensive magic is a waste. Warlock, Evoker, Path of the Mage, etc. The right gear. And of course, shards.  Properly specced, its a very damaging spell, cheap-ish and safe to use, as opposed to burning hands, which is more efficient, but more dangerous to use.  You pay a price for the range.

Even so, nuking is a generally inefficient use of magic in the game. It's better to only do it in more dire situations, where you just need to win an encounter by throwing mana points at it.

The most important part of Flame Dart and Burning Hands is that the damage is multiplied with the level. That makes these spells very weak early in the game and very strong late in the game.

I think nuking is very efficient if you use the right spells:

Blizzard with Mantel of the Oceans, Warlock, Path of the Mage, Evoker I and 2 water shards kills entire armies for 14 mana.

Flame Dart with a level 15 Sovereign, Warlock, Path of the Mage, Evoker I and 2 fire shards inflicts roughly 85 points of damage for 18 mana.
End of Wizard1200's quote

 

That's true, but right now in the game the need to nuke is very situational, and spending that 18 points on a regular basis would be a waste. There would almost always be a better way to spend those 18 points, and often a more efficient way to deal with the threat. But sometimes there are extreme threats you just have to throw mana points at.

 

Hopefully that may well change with further game balancing when the nerf hammer falls on some things, and the AI becomes much more dangerous.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Hi guys thanks for all the posts, it's been interesting to see your thoughts on this.

To you guys that have said you need to go for a more mana focused approach to be able to cast some of these spells, you're missing the point - it's about the relative merits of spells to each other. There are some really good spells that should be used again and again but the spells I mentioned don't get used and need to be made more appealing or they'll be ignored.

The honourable exception is flamedart, which can be great if used with a specialised champ.

Unfortunately balance is all over the place at the moment. Maybe we should also do another thread highlighting the OP game-warping spells too?

Someone mentioned raising the cost of Curgen's volcano (sorry forgot who) but this is absolutely the last thing they should be doing - what's the point in having spells you never want to cast? Where is the fun in that? - OK you might be the victim in some games but it's no different to being nuked in other games, you just take it on the chin and play on. 500 mana is way too much and 1000 is ridiculous and unfun too. With these spells the litmus test has to be "would I, the player, use this spell?" - if the answer is "no", then the spell needs to be improved.

There are other ways instead of mana costs to restrict access to spells - they could be late game techs and they could also be available for mastery in multiple magic schools - this way they feel like rewards and become fun to use and play against (you get to see the spells cast occasionally for a start - has anyone seen curgen's volcano cast in beta 3/4?).

Also, someone pulled me up on the tone of my first post and title - fair enough I could have moderated my language but this is not the first time I've highlighted these concerns and yet these inneficient, unappealing spells are still in beta 4 unchanged - so I used an incendiary post to highlight the concern - at the end of the day I want Brad's baby to do well this time instead of flopping - if a provocative title highlights these concerns to him and Derek then I'm happy to do that in order to help them where I can

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Also with regard to the AI using these spells against me - I fully welcome it, in fact I've asked Brad to improve the spell AI (particularly strategic) on several occasions - I like my strategy games to be tough as nails so I earn the win

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DGB246, reply 34
Hi guys thanks for all the posts, it's been interesting to see your thoughts on this.

To you guys ...
End of DGB246's quote

The gripe that sticks out the most from your OP is that spells cost too much mana.  While this is bound to change in future balance passes, I'm here to tell you that, IMO, as the game currently stands many of these spells are not overcosted, and may indeed be undercosted. 

I agree with some aspects of your post, specifically with respect to the fact that some more interesting spell effects can be added especially on late game spells.

The spell system needs some work before release, but other aspects of the game (diplomacy, quests, random events) need much more of the devs attention right now.

Reply #36 from Elemental Forums Top

@mqpiffle you say some spells might be undercosted but then don't specify which ones which isnt very convincing. Also, the spell system is a core mechanic that needs at least as much attention as the areas you highlighted.

Of the spells I listed, which one's do you use every game? Which one's do you build strategies around? Which one's should be nerfed?

It's great that Derek & co are creating all these spells for the game but you have some amazing spells and some awful ones.

A gripe for another thread is how ridiculously powerful Life (and by extension, kingdoms) is relative to Death - playing a kingdom is almost like taking the difficulty down one setting