Derek, please fix these 27 crappy spells

Agree with some of these, but as has been said before in other threads, Raise Land and Lower Land should NOT be cheaper.

They should not be able to be used casually in the early game.  They shouldn't able to be used casually at any point in the game, really, but by the time you can do so, you usually have plenty of other ways to put a hurt on the AI, so it doesn't really matter.

Don't see any reason Crugen's Volcano should be cheaper to use.  I certainly dont want the AI to use it on me more easily in the event they get better at using strategic spells.

If Pillar of Fire only does a piddling 8 points of damg +4 per fire shard, and can ONLY be cast in your territory, costs 48, then Firestorm, which does 10+10 per shard, can can be cast ANYWHERE, seems fair at 200, IMO.

If you think a spell is overpriced, I would suggest you spec your cities to gain more mana than to ask to lower mana costs for spells.   There does need to be strategic incentive for casting some of these spells.

That being said, I do agree that some of the current higher tier spells are particularly crappy or unbalanced (for their mana cost)  in their effects, or should simply be lower level spells.

Yeah, I have to strongly disagree with calling Raise Land, Lower Land, and Curgen's Volcano overpriced.  They're massively underpriced IMHO, and getting the first two right at the start doesn't make much sense to me.

Let's see, when I'm a newbie little wizard, I can

• Cause one little schmuck to regenerate 1 hp extra per season, or
• Cause another little schmuck's sword to sprout flames, or
• Level entire mountain ranges, and raise new mountain ranges as easily as sculpting mashed potatoes

I accept that raise/lower land is open to debate although I strongly believe they are overpriced to the point where there is little incentive to using them - 50 mana just feels like overkill. All it's really good for is creating shortcuts and you need to cast on loads of sea/mountain tiles to do that. Destroy land is cheaper yet that creates a 3x3 lake which is effectively a hard barrier - I know it has to be cast in controlled territory but that spell is much more exploitative.

With regard to Curgen's volcano - it's unavailable normally and I personally have never come across it in countless games (I'm going to create another thread about these lost spells) but I feel 500 mana is too much for any spell except the spell of mastery. The volcano is only going to nuke one city and in the late stages of the game you're going to have plenty - I personally think they should halve the cost to 250 mana and make it available to champs that have both earth 5 and fire 5 (how many of you have pulled that off in beta 4?) - it's just a 'win more' spell anyway as chances are if you are in a position to cast this you're already winning the game anyway.

Great list!

I really would like to see this fixed.  I hate the way it is now.  It used to be my bread and butter offensive spell for my character.  Now I spend the entire game using my magic user in melee fighting...  ????

I really hope this gets fixed.  On the other hand, I've been getting much more done around the house as I haven't had any interest in playing FE.

-martinsa

I dont think you've thought it through entirely yet. If Raise/Lower could be used casually early on, it could be used for all sorts of little exploitative stunts. Like walling off the AI, for instance. It's simply not something the AI would ever have a chance to understand or use as well as a player. The price means early on it's highly situational, for very specific situations, which is as it should be. The value will increase as the game becomes more balanced, the AI becomes smarter and more dangerous, and there will be situations where being able to forge such a shortcut will give you an advantage in time, access, or angle of attack.

 

It's a Death Star spell.  It destroys a city and resources, leaving scorched earth, so you can never use those resources again. I've easily racked up 500 mana in the late game, and on harder difficulties the AI is going to have bonuses that may very well give them acess to a large mana pool.

I doesnt matter if it only hits one city. If it hits the *right* city, it will be a bad day. Also keep in mind that theoretically, people should be able to play the game with a single city.  I dont see any reason to make that spell easier to cast.

Remember to think about these things from the point of view of something being used against you.  The AI might not always be so hapless.

well its permanent but ok its just a bad designed spell i think, like i said many times all magic trees require a lot of addition and balance, really a lot

are you kidding me?

you can win the whole game with this spell alone...

for the rest i agree, these spells need work

@Bingjack

You cannot use raise/lower land to create impassable barriers, you need destroy land (at earth 4) to do that and it costs 30 mana to turn 9 tiles into sea - it is only useful for shortcuts - how about as a compromise they raise the spells to earth 3 but they also lower their mana costs?

As for Curgen's volcano, it's not just about the mana cost - it's about getting the spell in the first place. Have any of you guys found this spell in beta 3 or 4? I've never found it, even if I did I wouldn't cast it because I'd object to paying 500 mana which is grossly inefficient. Think about all the things you can do with 500 mana spent on the good spells and instead you throw it all away on this one spell. 250 mana seems fair after all the hassle involved in getting the spell.

@heavenfall

Thanks

@martinsa

I think Derek has already changed flamedart to 8 damage plus extra for shards - I hope he lowers the mana cost too, instead he could stick a cool down time on it

Once again, you're thinking of it from the point of view of you being able to use it.  I would never use it either at any price, except for kicks, because it destroys resources, the whole reason I'm invading in the first place.

  If they AI gets a hold of it, they wont be as efficient minded as a human thinking about what would be a better use of mana. They will cast it, if Brad tells them to cast it (and I'm willing to bet he will).  In that event, the mana cost is the only thing serving as a countdown until the point they will use it. Depending on your playstyle (one or two strong cities vs many cities), it could ruin your day, or even be game over.  I'm not going to like it if they take out my production city, or a precious horse resource.  Many "nuclear option"s are in 4x games for novelty reasons, or as something for the player to fear, more than a realistic tool.

I'm going to be playing on harder difficulty levels, so the AI is going to have more mana than me for most of the game, as well as more money and tech.  Again, I fail to see any compelling reason to make this spell easier to use. It's good that it's rare. It's good that it's expensive.

As another poster said, perhaps you should refine your strategy for generating mana. I've got more mana than I know what to do with by the end of the game. If that ever changes, I will worry about how much a city killing spell that I'm never going to use should cost.

As for Raise /Lower land, it's been some time since Ive used it, so you may be correct. But I know in earlier builds when it was more spammable, I did all sorts of exploity stuff with it, and mountains ceased to become an environmental barrier, since I could pass through them at will.  In any event, it's a spell the AI will never be able to really use worth anything. It's completely a bonus to the player, and inherently unbalanced.  As such, while I think the game is more interesting with it in it,  I don't think it's something that should be too easily used by the player.

[edit] Just checked. I was able to use Raise Land to create a mountain tile, which became impassable.

there is already a 1 turn cd...

how much would you want it to be?

I don't see how Flamedart is a useless spell. My Flamedart does like 80 plus dmg. It depends on circumstance I guess. How many fire shards you have, etc.

Yes. Flame dart cast by a character who isnt specced for offensive magic is a waste. Warlock, Evoker, Path of the Mage, etc. The right gear. And of course, shards.  Properly specced, its a very damaging spell, cheap-ish and safe to use, as opposed to burning hands, which is more efficient, but more dangerous to use.  You pay a price for the range.

Even so, nuking is a generally inefficient use of magic in the game. It's better to only do it in more dire situations, where you just need to win an encounter by throwing mana points at it.

This is not true, by the way. I just raised land to a mountain tile, and it became impassable.  It took two applications.

I think flame dart should be 15 mana as it's basically a ranged burning hands (it used to be 15 mana). I realise flame dart can be used well with a sov that's specced for it and it gets good with a few levels but it's supposed to help you in the early game, which it doesnt do any more. I forgot they stuck a cool down on it too.

Since Derek's changed it to 8 damage plus 4 per shard (like it used to be) hopefully they will drop the cost too.

@bingjack

If you can create mountains with it then that is a bug - the description states you can't create mountains with it

You forgot Eyes of the Eagle. See 6 tiles around you? Even if this spells works it's a joke. Try 9 at least.

My tactful way of agreeing is yes, the spells do need some work.  Not only would I like to see some tweaked and fixed, but new ones as well. 

Don`t want to patronize or sound obnoxious, but you really could just use a much nicer tone to your post and get your message across the same way.

I`m willing to bet that a post that is better worded and well-mannered would get much more attention from the people that actually matter.

Your tone might generate some hype in the forum, internet loves some flaming, but it might also alianate your target audience, the developers.

and yet no one was flaming until you arrived going totally OT and criticizing another user...

You forgot alchemy: 100 mana to 100 gold. You want it the other way around...

100 mana is far more dangerous and valuable than 100 gold.  That spell is just designed for players who have an abundance of mana but need some quick gold. It's not supposed to be an equitable trade, or to replace the need for a good economy.

Unless you were not being serious, in which case I apologize. I couldn't tell.

I think the better solution is to keep most of these at high cost and then increase the player's ability to specialize a city in mana generation. Of course some of them simply seem like a bad trade. They should be reduced either way. 

The Level 5 Fire spells are a real bummer, so much so that I'll no longer ever choose that as a level-up. Let me summon a giant fire elemental that shoots fireballs out of it's eyeballs or something, or an improved version of Fireball that doesn't have downtime, or a massive firecage that goes around an opponent that keeps them from moving and fries them every turn, or summoning a flaming nightmare mount that boosts my movement by 2 and breaths fire.

I'm not sure how much more of an ability to specialize in mana generation we need. Even in the current build, which is down a bit from  previous builds where I used to finish with 800 mana in the bank sometimes, I usually end up over 40+ mana per turn by the end of my games (125-75 turns), and I'm not even trying. I don't build half the +mana buildings I could, and I dont even double down on any of the shards. I never make it more than halfway or so through the sorcery tech tree, and there's a lot of +mana there.

Over 50/turn wouldn't be reaching too far. At that rate I could cast dgb246's favorite Curgen's Hold every ten turns.   I can't imagine needing any more.  Clearly it's not that rate all game, and there are lean times, but if you're using the measures that are in place for gaining mana, it's not hard to come by.

Obviously it might vary by race. If you want to sling a lot of magic, play a more magically focused race like Pariden.