[WOT]in depth analysis of sovereigns[.95]

here is a detailed compendium on all sovereign and their strenght/weaknesses and playstyles

i based my evaluation in different phases of the game (early:lvl 1-5, mid:lvl 5-10, end:lvl 10+) using the more intuitive role playing way of using them


LADY IRANE

role: ranged assassin

skills:
-hunter is a good trait, help her early but becomes less important mid and end game
-tarth blood is perfect for exploring and leveling, helps her to hunt around in a small party like sovereigns usually do
-starting spells are just decent, most times you dont really need them though
-impulsive trait is also nice

-master scouts is really great and defines the race, being able to explore freely and position piooners early with no risk is huge bonus
-archers is another great trait, once you have access to these bows your army is really powerful and you have an amount of dmg really high
-masterwork chainmail pretty useless i must say, doesnt help much

early game:
irane starts with a bow and her overall early is not that bad, being ranged helps when opponents have no defense and low hp and also dont hit much, most of the times they die b4 reaching you or just hit you couple of times
but still her damage is pretty low, and she has not much utility to her team, its probably still better to wander with a couple of mates, either champions or summoned pet or anything because otherwise she cant really kill everything low level, just a big pack of wolves or spiders can be problematic
the best thing is you can snowball more than others placing many cities early without any risk, this is 90% of her strenght
7/10

mid game:
here irane starts being really weak and fall behind, as a fighter she has absolutely no damage compared to others, she ofc hasnt tanking capabilities and her early assassins traits arent really strong
unless you have been lucky finding a very good bow as a drop irane is basically useless, you kill medium monsters you really need a strong tank champions and some real damage
this is a huge problem because you cant rush the research into bows so either you have lvl 9 champions or you are closer to research the final bows ( Very good)
one way or another your mid game is bad, you need to stack criticals traits b4 doing any dmg and need to research a lot of thing
still the only good part is you should have a high research having built many cities early
3/10

end game:
in the final part of the game irane is good again finally
you have access to rams horn longbow that is quite a cheat in your army, a good party of those archers can kill basically EVERYTHING from monster to strongest armorer sovereigns
irane herself should finally have a good crit chance/dmg and maybe you foudn some book/item meaning now your crits WILL hurt, they are still a bit nerfed but adding you should have very high initiative irane damage is pretty good
the problem is still that end game depends on mid game, if your enemies farmed all the quests/monsters you couldnt kill you are still behind, if they declared war in mid game you are probably still in trouble etc etc
7/10


suggested fixes:
irane is not bad but overall she needs a small buff
my suggestion would be changing masterwork chanmail into something early game, something archerish, like a improved leather giving some initiative or some tools like rings amulets for hunting
anyway something that would buff irane and her army dmg early mid game, not requiring a lot of research because irane has the tools but all of them happen too late, she need a early research that allows her to resist  mid game when the best research come



LORD MARKIN

role: tank warrior

skills:

-ironeer blood is very very strong a huge defensive trait to a sovereign already so strong
-starting spells are SO INCREDIBLY STRONG, he has basically EVERYTHING a tanking support need from life and earth schools
-hardy like it wasnt enough all hes got another hpxlvl trait summing that to 30 spell resists and immunity to poison
-train golems is another decent trait
-armorer is another OP trait giving 25% defense bonus that scales really too well end game

-master smiths is a good trait but not so important because all the others are so OP even this good trait doesn shine
-great hammers, another good trait offering good weapons but even here being the sovereign so strong he wont need them, but could help his army
-light plate, about the same as above, helps slightly the army but its not much relevant

early game:
the empire itself is the only problem just for the reason he has no particular tool for that
this is more than balanced by the strongest sovereign in the game by a long margin, lord markin early can literally STEAMROLL EVERYTHING, not only small creatures but even some medium at early levels
that is due his incredibly scaling and snowballing power making him gain a huge amount of defense/hp with few levels AND the nature summon which is very strong
basically he can kill 90% of the monsters the remainin 10% being able to be killed thnx to the summon
summon is very OP the only con he has is the HUGE mana cost but even like this since he doesnt really need to cast often its not a problem
10/10

mid game:
here markin starts becoming a beast, you probably have another couple of hp traits and some dodge and so high armor he can easily tank and kill medium monsters no problem, against strongest ones he can still get the summon help and very strong spells like stoneskin heal to support etc
he is just a beast in fight
at this point you also start getting some reasearch into more fighting tools like the unique items and probably since you never fear monsters you got some good drop out there
i usually take few points into some offensive trait because he is totally unkillable by his peers so maybe taking path of the warrior or assassin is a good choice, but you can still focus on full tank and get some more dmg from other champions or army
10/10

end game:
he is just GOD
not other words, at this point of the game you surely have found a good weapon meaning you can deal some dmg while still being nearly unkillable, add to that some armor drop or champions gear et voila' the best tank in the game, he can blow dragons and enemy sovereigns cant really hurt him in any way, can solo cities with full defense no problem
ofc the real advantage here is that he can kill EVERYTHING, meaning your opponents are starting to struggle facing dragons etc while he can wander and farm the strongest monsters that gives 1/3 of the level each meaning he can keep leveling while his opponents are slowing down
but its irrelevant, he can kill the final quest boss way sooner than lvl 15 but he could also take any city he wanted to
10/10

suggested fixes:
he surely need a good nerf, first id remove his summon because that combo really makes him unstoppable early, imo there HAS TO BE something he cannot kill
then maybe id lower his damage or his scaling i think too many hp per level AND 25%defense AND spell resist is just too much
maybe some less base initiative and accuracy

 


MAGNAR

role: pure mage

skills:
-warlock dmg is a base for every mage, good skill ofc
-irrelevant and pretty weak in the actual meta because magic is too weak so its useless to have resists at all
-starting spells are just what he need, fire nukes, but his set is not really so huge
-attunement some more mana helps mages ofc
-brillant, this is a good trait, a must for mages ofc and helps level up
-train slaves, so and so trait, slaves help but usually you dont really need so much them, but as cannon fodder it helps

-slave lord this is a very cool trait totally changing gameplay, he really HAS to focus on fighting and killing enemies to feed his empire
-flesh bound tome not so strong imo

early game:
he has a small tool set but very effective
as any classic mage his power is really high, being ranged he basically can kill everything providing he has enough mana, which early on cannot really be possible
but he has another toolset with racial traits to use slaves to fight cheap and regain mana
its not really needed 90% of times imo but its a cool idea overall
9/10

mid game:
he is a bit "luck" dependant, because magic relies a lot on shards
prividing you have some and research the improvements magmar as fire mage just become GOD
his offensive power is immense and way below lvl 10 he can already kill really nearly everything in the game, most times just 1 shotting
being very lucky with shards and level up traits its game over here, no one can really match his power and even being unlucky his damage is anyway very high just not godlike
10/10

end game:
magic is scaling really too much in the game right now so if opponents really manage to get to end game its over anyway, you will have all the best traits and probably managed to find many fire shards making your damage immense
also your spells would cost not much thnx to traits so most likely you wont have mana problems
this is a major flow of the game, you dont really have to be glass cannon, wearing some heavy armor and shield is totally possible and the penalty is about nothing since the dmg comes from shards you can just be a half tank cannon but its not really needed because nearly no one at this stage can even touch you
10/10

suggested fixes:
magmar himself needs a small nerf but also is about general game mechanics, spells shouldnt scale so much, ppl around you should have much more spell resists etc
also to notice in this actual beta ai movement is broken so often they take more turns to reach you, greatly favoring ranged combat and so magmar
as a final notetraits providing dmg shouldnt be so huge at early mid levels


EMPEROR KARAVOX

role: tank mage(i think atm this is the most indicated role for him cause of the abilities giving him good defense, but having 2 powerful schools of magic i think its best being a bit mage too than a pure tank)

skills:
-diplomat its quite impossible to estimate in strenght but should help keeping the peace and so maybe favors a defensive expansionist/explorer gameplay
-krax blood pretty good defensive skill with fortify being the MOST BROKEN SKILL IN THE GAME, seriously is something not even remotely thinkable, 30% dodge for free , seriously???
-wealthy another pretty good skill that synergize a lot with the recruiting both factions champions
-starting spells are quite good

-defensive is decent but you really cant win just defending your own cities, so dunno, probably its strong in ai hands but as a player i dont think its so good
-betrayers is over all nice but in the actual game quite useless, the game doesnt favor hiring MANY champions, just a few good is the best option

early game:
he really doesnt have any good toolset, his playstyle should probably move towards expansion/exploring but there isnt really anything for empire and only thing sustaining him is how OP is fortify
so if you luck with fire shards early you can just build him full mage maybe otherwise even a tank that can occasionally cast works imo
anyway he is just a nerfed copy of other sovereigns, doing many things none of them any good apart from abusing fortify which ofc make him a decent tank
4/10

mid game:
again there is nothing in his toolset to excel
probably the only thing keeping him competitive here is if you rush research champions and hire the best in the world
but again, having many champions is not useful, and hiring all the good ones cost really too much early mid game
diplomat bonus could keep the peace to keep going to quest and exploring and so maybe keeping ad edge in items/levels over the opponents
but still the base is a weaker copy of other sovereigns
also unless really lucky with shards now the dmg starts to lower, no base bonus to dmg or mana, nothing to keep him competitive, ofc apart from fortify that until it gets nerfed allow him to play
3/10

end game:
here the possible paths to victory using his toolset appears to be research or adventuring
he can abuse the defensive bonuses while doing this other stuff instead of war while keeping the peace the longer possible
but still he has no peculiar bonus to neither research nor adventuring so he should still fall behind opponents
2/10

suggested fixes:
well i assume fortify will be severed soon, at least a mana cost and way less dodge is needed but id also make it last few turns not forever
so then apart from abusing this mechanics with ai he would just need something for his expansion but in general his playstyle is lacking, could really use a totally new skill to improve him someway


ORACLE CERESA

role: mage summoner (i focus on shadow magic just cause it seems more appropriate)

skills:
-summoner is ok ability and also the mark of the sovereign
-wraith blood im not even sure its a buff, it seems more a nerf to me :D
-starting spells are really weak, the worst for every school apart the summon ofc
-attunement just the usual help for pure casters
-scarred another huge nerf, she really has low hp

-adepts is really a minor buff, a small amount of mana to help her start and a tech that doesnt require much time to get anyway
-death worship should characterize the sovereign but imo is still a bit weak atm
-binding is a really cool skill offering a whole new set of creatures

-no armor is another huge nerf to compensate the quality of summons and creature she has at her disposal, over all the sum of all nerf is too huge imo, dying is too easy
-staff of souls is a very very good starting item, as soon as she has a good nuke it really helps

early game:
she is decent fighter due to her summon who helps her to kill stuff she couldnt due to lack of nukes but the scaling is veeeery slow, and having such a low survivability its quite hard to play a glass non cannon
creatures i saw till now also arent that strong, spiders dont quite offer enough to progress fast and her many curses are pretty useless apart a few situations
5/10

mid game:
she really start falling behind as a caster, shadow school is really weak, so unless you luck a lot with shards OR you abuse her background going fire etc she is pretty weak
nothing else she has really helps progressing here, she has half attack mage traits  but no nukes and summons really fall behind fast after lvl 5

there is nothing to cover the gap
2/10

end game:
i never really managed to win a game with her at higher diff so this is still WIP
i dont see anything that gives her a chance tbh apart some very lucky start and resource placement

suggested fixes:
summons really need to scale someway to follow her in her progress

not her problem but spells arent balanced we really need improvement into air death earth schools

her unique creatures should be buffed a lot



LORD RELIAS

role: warrior (he is a bit a jack of all trades but since he can craft nice swords...)

skills:
-adventurer weakest skill in game, really lvl 2 takes 2 fights... just useless
-altarian blood decent skill synergizes with his adventuring role
-starting spells are pretty weak
-natural leader instead is really OP but the metagame doesnt really points towards recruiting much, its still better recruit than not :D
-train henchmen, like you didnt have enough champions :D

-wanderlust is quite meh, athican leather is pretty bad and the sword comes really ages too late, so its pretty useless
-heroic decent to help progressing thourgh quests

early game:
he has basically nothing, just nothing, he is basically a weak warrior, only good thing is early is fast starting lvl 2 and leveling quite fast, just 2 3 quests and few mobs and you are done
3/10

mid game:
he basically disappear, he has nothing to grow his empire, nothing to defend it, all good techs comes too late, the only interesting concept is henchmen but they come waaaaaay too late to be of any use, considering you already have real champions... if at least you could rush henchmen way faster maybe...
his strenght as fighter is just nothing, the only point in playing him is hoping to find a chain of easy quests to farm and mobs you can defeat, and farm them hoping to get the gear to snowball
there is no other way to progress, his only strenght is leveling faster, but he has no tools to level against the right monsters... he can just hope to not find them but keep finding weaker ones
2/10

end game:

just slightly better because you can do repeatable quests to get good items and you bonus exp should matter, but all other relias skills arent really useful

3/10


suggested fixes:
he really need some fighting tool to be able to use the bonuses on questing and leveling up
also all his unique items and henchmen NEED to come really early in the game otherwise they are pointless


WARLORD VERGA

role: warrior

skills:
-warlord actually useless skill since gildar arent really a problem
-trog blood, pretty weak
-starting spells are so and so, you need to invest into spells if you want something useful to cast but blindness is very good
-hardy as usual a great trait
-train juggernauts well they are really op and gamebreaking imo

-warriors so and so starting tech
-warrior cast might help when rushing your army
-great axes arent so great tbh
-no ranged weapons quite hurt, having everyone melee isnt that great in this game

early game:

as a tankish warrior he can handle some stuff, death spells are quite good as supporting him (blindness mostly)
rushing an army seems the only viable strategy while rushing juggernauts are research since they are game breaking
he can survive early game without shining
6/10

mid game:
here his power starts to fall a bit behind, you either have a very good starting locations with many spot for cities or its nearly impossible to be on par
as a fighter he is just a decent tank but needs good gear to progress and you cant have yet all the good traits
but sooner or later juggernauts will come, its just a matter of how much behind you are when it happens
(ofc this works until ai figure how how easy it is to counter juggernauts)
4/10

end game:
abusing ai with an army of juggernauts can give you the victory but really he has nothing else to offer, his toolset falls behind the more the game progress
and as a pure strenght the sovereign isnt on par with others
4/10


suggested fixes:
as other sovereign the items need to come waaaaaaay faster to hand, its totally useless to have medium weapons that comes... mid game, either you have them soon or they are useless just offering not much more than usual weapons do
his base skills need some rework imo to make him better
i also hope magic will get rebalanced making his early death spells more useful
a smallish buff early game could really help progress in his path and making him a viable choice


QUEEN PROCIPINEE

role: summoner mage

skills:
-amarian blood, nice passive bonus
-starting spells are pretty bad imo, apart from the summon she has not good support stuff and no DD spells
-attunement, the usual help for casters

-adept is not so good tbh
-enchanters is pretty weak as unique ability only outposts might be useful but just to save time nothing more
-scrying pool is pretty OP since essence is now really strong

early game:
she starts quite well same as ceresa thnx to the summon, also scrying pool is a super good free essence, she has no problem at first levels and she is quite good
8/10

mid game:
and suddenly she become nearly useless
none of her schools of magic are any good mid game(well not her problem just as usual only fire is viable in the actual game)
summon is totally useless, it cant tank anything meaning you need a real tank, but he doenst do any dmg either so its just a waste of mana against mid creatures
only option to progress is taking the OP schoools of magic providing nukes but that is just  going against nature, she ISNT a nuker
enchanters is totally useless now because you most likely cant defend your cities from monsters growing
scrying pool is the only joy but since your cities are gonna fall anyway its pointless the small early advantage is gone
3/10

end game:
well there isnt any, as usual the only viable option as caster is going full nuke on some exploited school of magic and having many shards, otherwise youll need other champions or a good army to fight while her watches from behind sadly
2/10

suggested fix:

as other casters we really need improvements in the not working schools of magic and better summons

enchanters abilty need to be just remade, this version isnt any good

24,404 views 69 replies
Reply #1 Top


Interesting analysis.  I am just going to bring up Ceresa, while binding is mention I did not see anything about the spiders.  Their deal is to make sure nothing moves by shootingi webs.  Then the casters or Ceresa nukes or shoots everything up.  Who needs armor if they can't get to you?  That's the idea anyway.  I've not tried it extensively but it pretty good early on. Secondly starting spells are weak ?  Really?  Did you bother?  Graveseal.  Since she can use corrupt shard, every shard is one of her colors.  Not to mention she will be getting godly herself with multiple dark shards.  That's an advantage not many other sovereigns have.  Getting mana types that work with them.  I'll leave it to others to comment further, but this is why I think Ceresa should fare better in rankings than she did above.

 

This does get a discussion going, so cheers. 

'

Reply #2 Top

Quoting Supreme, reply 1

Interesting analysis.  I am just going to bring up Ceresa, while binding is mention I did not see anything about the spiders.  Their deal is to make sure nothing moves by shootingi webs.  Then the casters or Ceresa nukes or shoots everything up.  Who needs armor if they can't get to you?  That's the idea anyway.  I've not tried it extensively but it pretty good early on.

End of Supreme's quote

 

well early i gave her a decent score, she is not so bad

crowd control is a good thing but ceresa herself lack the dmg, so only option to nuke is abusing other broken game mechanics (fire school for example) or just building an army of archers rushing those tech which i consider exploit too since she is a magic sovereign

 

 

Secondly starting spells are weak ?  Really?  Did you bother?  Graveseal.  Since she can use corrupt shard, every shard is one of her colors.  Not to mention she will be getting godly herself with multiple dark shards.  That's an advantage not many other sovereigns have.  Getting mana types that work with them.  I'll leave it to others to comment further, but this is why I think Ceresa should fare better in rankings than she did above.

 

End of quote

 

the problem is shadow doesnt scale so much having all shadow is not even remotely as powerful as having all fire or water, but yeah, once there is some balance pass changing color to shards might be really cool

 

second is the problem of all mages, you need just TOO MANY traits only to work, not to be good

i retried last night another game and it was the same old story

i managed to get to lvl 12 which is incredibly high for her, i think it was my record with ceresa, and she was very weak

why?

ill go in details

-summons and unique creatures are totally useless at that point, getting 1shot by everything in fact im only using normal trained armies

-curses per se are great but even at lvl 12 i dont have enough spell mastery to cast safe so to get a curse going on high lvl monsters it takes sometimes 3 4 tries... my army is almost dead there

-there are many resisting monsters meaning all curses got wasted while nukes could work but shadow has only life drain (and dirge but i consider that a bit cheating atm since the ai move bug)

-i just got 1 level of summon trait

 

at that point of the game imo to make her viable she would need

-2 3 summon traits more (and they should buff summons much more they actually do)

-some trait for spell dmg

-some trait for spell mastery

-some defensive/all around trait like adventure bloom etc

 

basically she would need like 8 more levels to do what others woudl just do at her level :D

 

thats also as written in many other threads is a problem of itemization, if there was some way to get a armor set designed for mages giving some of those stats and some proper weapon problems would be much less

Reply #3 Top

The binding demon from death shards can be a monster EARLY game. If you manage to kill a bandit or two fast, then you can make them multiply to 9 within a few rounds (taking bandits, wolves and mites). You can now totally dominate the early game with them (unless they have been nerfed in Beta 4). Give them a few levels and they have tons of hitpoints.

Reply #4 Top

I've been playing with a modded Summoner profession that grants the caster's Level as a bonus to any new summons instead of a flat +2, and it seems to work out rather well. The summons + caster are at least on the level of my earth/life/air warrior builds. Might need to be reduced to +1/2 Level but it's better than paper summons.

 

I think the traits in general need a serious balance check (which is what Beta 5 is for I believe). Some are paltry additions while others are amazing. Just compare Armorer with... Bandit Lord. Or even Hunter, which is at least decent. Now if Bandit Lord allowed you to raid enemy trade routes, that'd be something, but as of now it's practically worthless.

 

I also agree with you that all Krax getting access to Fortify is over the top. It'd make more sense as a unit trait for them, and possibly get reduced a bit from the tremendous +30 Dodge it currently provides. Because right now Krax heroes with Evasion thrown on can begin with 45+ Dodge. That's even better than Stoneskin's early game advantage. Combine that with Blind and you'll be playing MC Hammer.

Reply #5 Top

Quoting Madcatter, reply 5
I've been playing with a modded Summoner profession that grants the caster's Level as a bonus to any new summons instead of a flat +2, and it seems to work out rather well. The summons + caster are at least on the level of my earth/life/air warrior builds. Might need to be reduced to +1/2 Level but it's better than paper summons.
End of Madcatter's quote

 

yes i think this is a good option, maybe 1 base level of the summon for every 2 of the sovereign (plus eventually the traits) is something more appropriate

 

 

Quoting joasoze, reply 3
The binding demon from death shards can be a monster EARLY game. If you manage to kill a bandit or two fast, then you can make them multiply to 9 within a few rounds (taking bandits, wolves and mites). You can now totally dominate the early game with them (unless they have been nerfed in Beta 4). Give them a few levels and they have tons of hitpoints.
End of joasoze's quote

 

the problem i had is that they are tanks in my early mid game, just cannon fodder

i really never managed to level up them even though i see the concept behind them could be interesting they dont seem to work

anyway ill try again another game, im open to suggestion and i want to see if its possible to make those creatures work some way

Reply #6 Top

Altar is good!  You did not even use altar's defining trait - summoning quests with his scroll and completing them for prestige. I had all my cities maxxed in no time because of this and the horrible rng for item rewards wasn't a factor because I had so many quests to complete. Admitedly I did not use his special champions either, but you should really be trying them out before making such an assessment. 

I agree that his level 2 start is pointless though and the racial experience bonus is negligble since level requirements are exponential not linear.

Oracle Ceresa is the same (as already pointed out). You say that she has to be lucky finding shards? That would indicate that you did not even use her defining characteristic: corrupt shard. She can switch shards out her own type! She can even destroy them for a quick 200 mana (this value was a carry over from a previous version and should really be 500 now). Also you did not use her spiders to web enemies, allowing you to rain destruction from afar.

I agree that the lack of armor is a bit much though. For units this can be chalked up as balanced out by her spiders, but the difference between having armor and not having armor is easily worth most other traits (adepts espeically). Either she needs some sort of champion armor spell that scales with death shards or the armor penalty should applied to trained units only.

QUEEN PROCIPINEE is an amazing early steam roller. Though she should really start with earth rather than water for enchanted hammers. Those scrying pools are her defining characteristic and are good both early and late game as they scale with many researchable improvements. As a side note, enchanters is the trait that gives you those scrying pools and does NOT need changing! Not to mention you can use the books to give her every spell school. (yes fire that you claimed she does not have..) You also didn't mention her crown that you could easily pass to a tankier champion and cast every buff under the sun.

I agree that adepts is pretty terrible. All the starter technology traits are lackluster and should really be replaced with longer term effects. The whole notion of whether or not procipinee is useful is based on the viability of mages, and does need work. This isn't a faction related concern, but a champion related one.

Overall

I have yet to play the other nations and as such have nothing to say about them, but it seems obvious that you have a bias in the way you play, and have consequently overlooked many available options for those factions or graded those that worked well with your style of play much higher than they probably should be. I recommend going back and trying out some of their new abilities before claiming that those factions function poorly.

On another note, your assessment seems to be focusing more on soveriegns and not the faction itself. You've mentioned that irane is poor because of her assassin traits being poor, but that is really an issue of the level up system and the poor balancing act between Path of the X.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting CdrRogdan, reply 7
Altar is good!  You did not even use altar's defining trait - summoning quests with his scroll and completing them for prestige. I had all my cities maxxed in no time because of this and the horrible rng for item rewards wasn't a factor because I had so many quests to complete. Admitedly I did not use his special champions either, but you should really be trying them out before making such an assessment.
End of CdrRogdan's quote

 

i tried... like i said they are just plain bad

first the usual problem of nearly every sovereign unique stuff, they come soooo late, distinguish traits should be available very soon because later in the game there are already many options

also whats the point of CRAFTING weak champions when you can free hire champions already high lvl?

when there arent anymore champions available its still better to train good troops instead of just using weak troops you need to level up

only thing i need to try is just ignoring henchmen and try abusing quest for prestige and stuff but i dont see how only prestige can help so much with the empire, ill try anyway

btw my main point still remain, HOW you complete mid end game quests with such a weak sovereign? using an army? other champions?

 


Oracle Ceresa is the same (as already pointed out). You say that she has to be lucky finding shards? That would indicate that you did not even use her defining characteristic: corrupt shard. She can switch shards out her own type! She can even destroy them for a quick 200 mana (this value was a carry over from a previous version and should really be 500 now). Also you did not use her spiders to web enemies, allowing you to rain destruction from afar.
End of quote

webbing is pointeless since ceresa has no ranged power... her summons are all melee, so spiders arent that good for that reason

corruption potentially could be very good but lets explain once again, magic is bad, death magic is very weak and doesnt scale much (most of the spells doesnt scale at all) so having 20  death shards is not so useful like it woudl be having 20 fire shards or water

once we have a good balanced magic i think that could be really strong but we have to wait for now

 



QUEEN PROCIPINEE is an amazing early steam roller. Though she should really start with earth rather than water for enchanted hammers. Those scrying pools are her defining characteristic and are good both early and late game as they scale with many researchable improvements. As a side note, enchanters is the trait that gives you those scrying pools and does NOT need changing! Not to mention you can use the books to give her every spell school. (yes fire that you claimed she does not have..) You also didn't mention her crown that you could easily pass to a tankier champion and cast every buff under the sun.
End of quote

 

books should be removed from the game :D

its so bad mechanic that hurt, but even having all these champions with 2 3 school of magic is pretty bad like explained many times, anyway its just exploiting game mechanics using fire becuase fire is the only  viable school of magic

she is a summoner and she needs to be viable using summons, enchants buffs etc, not just taking the only good nukes in the game

 



I agree that adepts is pretty terrible. All the starter technology traits are lackluster and should really be replaced with longer term effects. The whole notion of whether or not procipinee is useful is based on the viability of mages, and does need work. This isn't a faction related concern, but a champion related one.
End of quote

yes you are right

i quite like the concept of ceresa and procipinee but the general weakness of whatever is not fire mage comprimise them

 



I have yet to play the other nations and as such have nothing to say about them, but it seems obvious that you have a bias in the way you play, and have consequently overlooked many available options for those factions or graded those that worked well with your style of play
End of quote

absolutely not

i m open to suggestion for possible options i forgot and i dont have any bias because my playstyle is totally different i just try to play the sovereign for what they should be and im not trying to win the game but to play and see how they perform

 

ofc i could win a game with ceresa just going fire mage or hiring fire champions but thats not the point

 

and for irane i valued VERY MUCH her skill to move through monster because that is really game breaking early

anyway thnx for your contribute even if i dont agree with lot of things ill try to test your suggesting and see if i can convince myself to change a bit opinion on some guys

Reply #8 Top

none of her schools of magic are any good mid game(well not her problem just as usual only fire is viable in the actual game)
End of quote

 

Perhaps I am misreading this, but a truly great, repeatable battlefield tactic is to cast Growth on one's melee types, and both Slow and Shrink on one's enemies.  I'm not sure how this is in accord with your comment about fire being the only viable element in the game.

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Glazunov1, reply 9

none of her schools of magic are any good mid game(well not her problem just as usual only fire is viable in the actual game)

 

Perhaps I am misreading this, but a truly great, repeatable battlefield tactic is to cast Growth on one's melee types, and both Slow and Shrink on one's enemies.  I'm not sure how this is in accord with your comment about fire being the only viable element in the game.
End of Glazunov1's quote

 

yeah those are nice spells but i dont think that a pure life mage woudl be viable

 

anyway none of the actual starting sovereigns are based on life magic so life can only be supportive someway in other playstyles

maybe i was too drastic in my statement but those spells just dont make the game, they are useful sometimes, yes

Reply #10 Top

I think all the soveriegns and races are pretty good - between beta 3 and 4 I've played all of them and I think they can all become very powerful indeed. If you level up any of the sovereigns right they can all become total badasses - I don't think any of the 8 have any serious weaknesses really.

I'm currently using Ceresa and the wraiths (my personal favourite) and they definitely are not weak - OK they get some penalties via wraithblood, scarred, and no armour but they also get major bonuses too that allow them to really kick ass - Cyndrum demons allow you to rush your neighbours in the early game and the spiders web abilities are very handy too as support for Ceresa - Resoln's enhanced death magic allows Ceresa to be a wrecking ball and she becomes unstoppable with enough mana and death shards.

I havent even looked at some of the other shard bound creatures for earth and air because multiple death shards are so good I just focus in that direction - of the 3 I've used (death, fire, water) I definitely prefer the Cyndrum demon. All the spiders and shard demons are maintenance free too which allows you to build large forces with no/low taxes.

 

With regard to Procipinee she is already very good - try sticking loads of enchantments and armour on her and she becomes a wrecking ball.

Reply #11 Top

try earth elementals, they are the best as starters, 6 hp regen per turn and full hp after a kill

but on level up they are pretty bad, only 4 hp per level but no dmg/defense meaning like every other summon around midgame starts being useless

 

i always kept 1 earth shard for him b4 changing to death

 

 

Reply #12 Top

ok here another extensive testing of lord relias and i confirm everything

he is just bad

i even managed to win one game but i had a super lucky start with 4 cities with 2 essence and great spots

 

about quests you can buy:

the problem like i stated above is that those quests are all hard and like every weak sovereign relias is stuck mid game

at lvl 5 you cannot complete any of those quests unless

- you have a good army with you which is quite impossible, i had a super lucky empire and still struggled defending everything couldnt really afford to build an army just to do 1 quests

-you find a broken lvl 9 champion (or some lvl 7 there are a few very good)

-you luck with quests/random drops and get some super weapon

 

at lvl 5 you are surrounded by slag and forest drakes that you cannot even think to kill and he cnanot do anything, i had to overdefend every city just in the hope drakes wouldnt stop my cities

 

only thing that helped a little bit i have to admit is the bonus exp, which allowed to pass faster this phase of the game

 

after struggling long i managed to get a couple of levels while my top notch cities kepts bringing me ahead with research

 

finally i could afford to build an army of archers and with them i managed to clear the slags surrounding my cities

 

then at lvl 7 8 with few drops i started to do free quests and could keep going

 

but not for any relias strenght, just cause ANY warrior in the game after few levels and items is too much strong

 

at  that point i also found a good champion and it was gg

 

 

final verdict on relias is: he is just a sub par sovereign and his toolkit should be much much buffed to make him viable

 

Reply #13 Top

To add to the discussion, does anyone else find it bad balance that there are so many heroes that are far superior to Sovs? I am fine with seeing level 9 heroes out there, but my Sov at level 9 is often times much weaker. Sovs should be more powerful and losing them in battle should hurt more. Some of them are way too weak. To me, it is a problem with path balance. Assassins take too long to be competitive. Those special Sov traits are in no way balanced. Starting Sovs are too often unable to level properly due to lack of early game easy battles. I am not saying they all need midgame gear and a champion's pike, but maybe a little more progression in the battles they face. If every treasure chest we found had a small wilding or mite army to face, at least we could get to level 6 early enough to expand. 

Reply #14 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 14
To add to the discussion, does anyone else find it bad balance that there are so many heroes that are far superior to Sovs? I am fine with seeing level 9 heroes out there, but my Sov at level 9 is often times much weaker. Sovs should be more powerful and losing them in battle should hurt more. Some of them are way too weak. To me, it is a problem with path balance. Assassins take too long to be competitive. Those special Sov traits are in no way balanced. Starting Sovs are too often unable to level properly due to lack of early game easy battles. I am not saying they all need midgame gear and a champion's pike, but maybe a little more progression in the battles they face. If every treasure chest we found had a small wilding or mite army to face, at least we could get to level 6 early enough to expand. 
End of seanw3's quote

 

 

yes pretty much the base general problem

 

lvl 5 6 is again still possible killing 2132321312321 mites, wolves, bandits

 

after that you most likely wont have any of them to kill and anyway they would give so low exp it wouldnt matter

 

like you said the flow of the game suggest hiring those broken lvl 9 champs

 

 

as i detailed wrote above some sovereign really need some fighting power early mid game to be able to fight medium creature and complete medium hard quests to keep progressing in the game

i think a rework to some spells might help but like you pointed out still many champions are just better than sovereigns, so its a must sovereign traits should be improved(well some champions might be nerfed too  maybe)

 

 

Reply #15 Top

Not so much specifc leader comment...more so about factions themselves:

Still seems like it takes quite a bit to get underway, techologically speaking as well as civilizational speaking.

I recommend that each faction start off with 1 (and perhaps the two weakest factions start of with 2) technologies; each faction having a tech that meets their overall personality. This would GREATLY help get the game underway.

I also recommend, and I've said this in other threads, that the pioneers (taking about 10 turns to make) be responsible for city building and that scouts (taking about 5 turns to make) be responsible for outpost making. I think this would greatly help keep those cities queue's clear for the more important city work.

Haven't played enough champs to start comparing them yet....

 

Reply #16 Top

I like having an RPG game to start things off. We just need that part of things to be better balanced. The early game pace is mostly slow because Sovs cannot progress at a reasonable speed. Giving techs would take away the RPG element and send things straight into the grand strategy elements. I don't think that is the intended design. 

Reply #17 Top


Perhaps. I enjoy the RPG element to be throughout the whole game. 'Switching gears' isn't the best way to go about it either...cause then there might as well be two games....

I'm really hoping this game fills the 'hero defending his realm' aspect.

Example: Just finished watching "Naussica, Valley of the Wind". Hero (Naussica) protects her small realm from all sort of chaos and devastation around, including monsters, foreign armies, and even the land itself. Story is packed fully of quests and adventure, yet gives the feel of way more at stake at the nation level.

That's what I see in coming out of this game...I hope...

 

Reply #18 Top

It's not switching gears exactly. It's more like good techno. Things start out simple and grow more complicated by adding new layers. You don't stop the RPG, but new TBS elements are added. In the beginning they are not there so much as we only have one city and not much is happening there. That is why there should be alot going on with heroes. It adds something unique to the game. It is also nice to set the story development for your starting units. Now, this is my hope for the game. It looks like that is the intention of the devs too based on recent changes, but who knows? Just them really.

Reply #19 Top

As of now, the only way I have fun playing is to set monsters, resources, and magic to dense.  The game, to me, seems much better balanced this way.

Oh, and Relias is really good.  I think you just don't like him.  :-p

Reply #20 Top

i like dense monsters too

 

relias is not good sry, i tried him so much lately in every possible way and he  just plain sux

he has no distinctive trait apart from the quest scroll

 

if only the unique weapons could come sooner... (and the armor was much much better)

Reply #21 Top


The quest scroll is part of a different trait. The +1 presitge and double xp from quests is the other trait. They pair very nicely together. The fact that quests start as 'strong' is probably a little much. They should be based on the users level (up to deadly). I was going to write up a new post about sovereign starting trait balance...

Currently the only good ones are:

  • -50% Unit wages
  • +25% Armor to all units
  • +50% Sovereign Spell Damage

I haven't tried diplomat or beast lord (isn't this redundant now?), so I can't say, but the others are pretty terrible.

 

Also how can you say you aren't biased in your play style when you say that procipinee has to be played as a mage? Her crown and the faction racial trait allows her to function much better as a fighter or defender. But again I'm not sure if your post is supposed to be about faction balance or hero balance.

If it is the latter you would be much better off breaking this into two-three posts: 

  • One highlighting the pros and cons of path of the warrior vs path of the assassin for example.
  • The other highlighting the profession bonuses and some recommendations
  • A third? To discuss spell school balance.

If it is the former your examples are misleading because so much is hinged on the personal performance of your soveriegn.

Reply #22 Top

Quoting CdrRogdan, reply 22

 

Also how can you say you aren't biased in your play style when you say that procipinee has to be played as a mage?
End of CdrRogdan's quote

because she IS a mage?

 

Her crown and the faction racial trait allows her to function much better

End of quote

 

you dont get the point

im not trying to win the game

to win a game you play with things that functions better

but this being a beta is full of broken mechanics, ofc you can follow them and win but who cares?

 

im trying to balance the starting choices in particular the sovereigns

 



One highlighting the pros and cons of path of the warrior vs path of the assassin for example.
The other highlighting the profession bonuses and some recommendations
A third? To discuss spell school balance.

If it is the former your examples are misleading because so much is hinged on the personal performance of the soveriegn.
End of quote

 

you are partially right here, but my idea of this thread is just analyzing the starting sovereigns and trying to improve and balance them

ofc being some of them particularly focused on some school of magic or other stuff their strenght and weakness derive from the base strenght of magic and stuff

 

 

 

Reply #23 Top

This may be just a little over the top but perhaps a solution to sovs leveling to slow might be for sovs to pick two traits at level up instead of one. Note this would only be for sovs not other heros.

Reply #24 Top

Quoting j_wl_b, reply 24
This may be just a little over the top but perhaps a solution to sovs leveling to slow might be for sovs to pick two traits at level up instead of one. Note this would only be for sovs not other heros.
End of j_wl_b's quote

This is an interesting idea....makes your sovreign intergral to all the important parts of the game as he/she is the obvious strongest character in the game...

 

Reply #25 Top

Quoting GFireflyE, reply 25

Quoting j_wl_b, reply 24This may be just a little over the top but perhaps a solution to sovs leveling to slow might be for sovs to pick two traits at level up instead of one. Note this would only be for sovs not other heros.


This is an interesting idea....makes your sovreign intergral to all the important parts of the game as he/she is the obvious strongest character in the game...

 
End of GFireflyE's quote

It would also make enemy sovs powerful too so whenever you see an enemy sov come knocking on your door you would start worrying. Sov vs Sov battles would be interesting too. The only question is if doing this would unbalance the game too much.