[0.95] Ways to make micromanagement more pleasent.

from Elemental Forums

With Beta 4 game requires even more micromanagement: spawning tens of pioneers, making 2 upgrades for each resource available, 2-3 upgrades for each building, now also upgrades for numerous outposts. And this is all multiplied by easy and fast made 4-8 cities. Its not a strategy, its a burdain. Instead of immersing myself into a beautiful world of magic I have to think about hundreds of these things and about when they will become available by researching a tech tree. Things like pressing a button "upgrade" hundreds of times do not add more strategy, roleplay and pleasure to the game. Opposite, they actually kill all my pleasure of playing by taking all my attantion, although I have a huge experience with 4x games. So why not making these things I mentioned more interesting? Let us post here the reasonable and clear ideas of how to decrease burdain of micromanagement. I really hope that Derek and others will listen to us and implement some of them.

Ways how I see it myself based on my experience with civ4, FFH 2, Master of Mana, Endless Space, HoMM 3-6, Disciples 2 etc.

 

  • Pioneer must cost 2-3 times more labor and he/she doesn't die when he construct outpost. He spends 5+ seasons and 30 guildar to build it and moves next. Placing a city however kills a pioneer. Lets call it engineer or something. Human player will get some special feelings with his engineer, because he has only one or two. Various roleplay possibilities like Guilden engineers are best and Reslon are worst. Settling a new city inside a kingdom/empire must be a challenging investment.
  • Player chooses the type of outpost when starting to build it by pioneer. Outposts autoupgrade automatically after 20 and 50 turns provided that corresponding tech is researched: Outpost -> Fortress -> Citadel, making each next with higher ZoC and bonuses inside it's ZoC. lvl 3 outpost should become strong defending strategical objects not easy to take over. 
  • Otposts must have strong stationed defenders (archers) depending on its level like cities preventing the situation when a dog with 4 moves can take over all enemy outposts in 5-7 turns during war. Pillaging of resources is still possible.
  • Spawning large number of cities and far away from each other must have an unrest or guildar penalty (for instance +10% unrest penalty for each next city build). This will lead into more compact kingdoms forming a beautiful maps in late game.
  • Number of available buildings must be a little bit decreased. Now buildings are too many. Some of them do the same thing without having a roleplay feeling and strategy attached to them, they just add pain of micromanagement instead.
 
  • (NorsemanViking) it should be a greater cost somehow when a pioneer build a city, compared to an outpost. 
  • (Dhuran) Outpost expansion has to be limited somehow. A max number of them associated witheach city, or some level of upkeep
  • (Kongdej) I really hope for the magic to hit the outposts too, they dont really seem very magical

 

Please tell me guys what you think about it and post your own ideas. I will add best suggestions to the first post to make it visible. It's our chance now to make this game close to perfect while its still in developement :thumbsup:  . 

 

4,142 views 6 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree with you on the increased micromanagement. I was definitely feeling the burden after my first play through. Some if it (with world resources) could be helped with timely indicators that tell you something can be upgraded.

 

I was actually thinking of Endless Space during one of the games while observing the extreme expansion that seems to occur in 1 or 2 AI players. Endless Space has a system where expansion has a global (or I guess universal in that game's case) impact on your population unrest, so if you expand a lot, you population becomes very unhappy. This could curtail the obscene amount of expansion in cities, but it would also add MORE micromanagement, so it would have to be done carefully.

 

Outpost expansion has to be limited somehow as well. A max number of them associated with each city, or some level of upkeep. They would have to be careful with this as well since it could easily turn into more micromanagement. Of course if there was an upkeep associated with them they would have to generate some sort of defenders as well.

 

I did feel a little bit choked on development with the world tile improvements being added to the city queues.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top


I don't really like any of these ideas.

 

A lot of what you consider micromanagement I'd say ties into strategic decision making.  For ex, automating outpost upgrades takes away potential decisions on, do I upgrade the outpost tied to this city (or the bunch of them) or do I train a unit, or do I build a building.

 

The whole upgrade system reduced the number of buildings available.

 

Defending your territory is your responsibility.  If you want an archer on an outpost, build one.  Again, automating this takes away from making decisions.  As Brad has said in recent demo vids, part of your expansion consideration should be, "can I defend this?"

 

If the AI is making fast units and wiping out undefended resources then I'd say it's doing a good job.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

"Number of available buildings must be decreased. Now buildings are too many. Some of them do the same thing without having a roleplay feeling and strategy attached to them, they just add pain of micromanagement instead."

I really like the new building system, but agree that pioneers must have theyre faces mashed with a hammer or something, its abit tiresome to spam all these pioneers and outposts during startup just because it seems better than any other item I can put in my queue.

"Outposts autoupgrade automatically after 20 and 50 turns provided that corresponding tech is researched: Outpost -> Fortress -> Citadel, making each next with higher ZoC and bonuses inside it's ZoC. lvl 3 outpost should become strong defending strategical objects not easy to take over."

I am not a fan of the "Auto-upgrade" feature of outposts, Id much rather like if the ability to upgrade them was placed in an easier accessible location, like in the city that owns the outpost.

"Making resource improvements doesn't pile up a queue in a closest city, however it costs 20 guildar and takes 5-7 seasons. Similar to beta 3. Each additional upgrade cost guildar and takes time."

Really like how the cities have to build everything

Well in general, I only think your number 1 proposal is good, and nr 3 and 4 is worth thinking about. Rest is just because seemingly you miss beta 3, I like most all the upgrades to cities and outposts, of-course missing balance and UI to be in place.

I really hope for the magic to hit the outposts too, they dont really seem very magical, and ill hope they'll add small animation depending on each upgrade chosen for the outpost! :D

Edit: Im an idiot, I have to wait for the upgrade to finish before the animation arrives :D

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I pretty much agree with everything Kongdej said.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top


This game has not too much micro management. Auto-upgrades of outposts are bad, and give less strategy. I love how they now are a part of closest cities build queue. Why do the OP want less hard choices for himself? Some micro that could be avoided if shards and other ressources, pluss outpost upgrades, could be visible in the cities build screen alternatives.

Micro for no reason is bad (example lack of tooltips makes you have to click here and there for cruical info). Micro for a reason is good. :)

I agree though it should be a greater cost somehow when a pioneer build a city, compared to an outpost.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Voqar, reply 2

If you want an archer on an outpost, build one
End of Voqar's quote

Quoting Voqar, reply 2

A lot of what you consider micromanagement I'd say ties into strategic decision making.  For ex, automating outpost upgrades takes away potential decisions on, do I upgrade the outpost tied to this city (or the bunch of them) or do I train a unit, or do I build a building.

End of Voqar's quote

It will be a strategy decision only if "upgrade the outpost" or "train a unit" or "build a building" are balanced. Outpost upgrades however now are totally useless compared to other mentioned options. Like I said one dog with 4+ moves can take over all these outposts in just few turns with no effort and it's impossible to build an archer for every outpost to stop this dog since outposts/pioneers breed much faster than descent archers...