Increasing the Sovereign's Power

I have a desire to have sovereigns as a centerpiece of the game. That said, I feel they are by far the strongest in the game - not comparable to champions in terms of power. A sovereign can accrue so much more experience than champions because he does not need to fear injuries. My sovereigns are always several levels above any champion I have recruited. That also means they can wear the best gear you find, not to mention them being so much stronger and not able to suffer injuries makes them perfect for clearing out monsters.

I think if anything the sovereigns lack flavour. They should not face the same choices as champions do when they level up. They have their histories, which is great, but development needs some spice.

One might consider a simple solution such as making Sovereigns the only ones able to learn level 5 spells.

I don't think your suggestions would help. Creating magical items.... unless they are locked to your sovereign you could just give them to your champions. Marriage... children are basically just champions... how does that solve anything?

Locking your sovereign to a city is really bad... currently you have incentive to level him/her up for prestige.

Champions being able to cast spells isn't that big of an advantage. They are important because you get lots of powerful items, and you want to spread those around.

So really, I think the only solution is:

give sovereigns access to traits on level up that are very different from the champion selection

I also agree that limiting level 5 spells to sovereigns only could help, though I personally don't find the higher level spells useful. (Usually only need level 2 or 3 to get the most useful spells). 

I've posted a few times on this, but in relation to "What is wrong with magic in E:FE".

Personally, I'd like to see City Enchant and most if not all strategic map spells limited to sovereigns only, regardless of spell level. Doing so would;

• Make spell school selection on Sovereigns valuable - you would not be able to just find a champion with Earth magic to get your +production city enchant.
• Make the sovereign more implicitly powerful in relation to other units - they would have magic that effects the WORLD, and not just units and battles.
• Improve overall replayability - limited choices for strategic spells over the course of one game means that you have access to a greater between-game significant variance of abilities to experiment with.

I dislike the marriage/children aspect if only because of how it bends time in the game. Either the children grow up way too quickly, making it feel forced, or they grow up way too slowly and never become significant in the game. If the sovereign had been abstracted into the capital, the whole dynasty system could have been a pretty awesome and compelling twist on existing 4x themes, but with the Sovereign as a dynamic and stage-forward character, there is really no logical way to work children into the game as it currently exists.

I would love to see magic item crafting become a part of this game.

@Heavenfall---I actually hate the fact the Sovereigns do not have to deal with injuries.  I think the injuries need to be more severe, and death needs to be an option.  I do think the Sovereigns should also be effected by injuries.  Walking around with impunity that you describe is a flaw.  You do not develop a connection to the character because there is absolutely no repercussion to them losing a fight.  You lose some mana, big deal.  I do like the idea of another set of upgrades for Sovereigns.  But I disagree that they are any more powerful than champions as of right now.  They are just Champions that you start the game with.

I also think your post shows the problem.  The Sovereign is not more powerful.  They are just a higher level and get better equipment.  That is not a more powerful character.  The Sovereign is just a champion with more experience so you have given them the best stuff.  That is not very inspiring.

I don't really understand what you are saying. If they have higher level with better equipment and no risk of injury, they are by definition "more powerful".

I'm fine with giving them a more spicy development and such so that they can develop differently than champions, but if you think they aren't the centerpiece of the game right now you are wrong.

They're strong, they just aren't interesting.

Asking me, I don't want sovereigns to be more powerfull, but rather, more unique to the game.

I want a specific reason to use my sovereign instead of powerlevelling a hero, besides just "he doesn't get injuries", since if its a gamebreaking injury, I will probably load an autosave anyways since losing half my progress with an injury nerfing my high level champ hurts my feelings

I do not think a lot of the solutions posted in the original thread would help, How would a dynasti system unless limited to the sovereign help? (besides the problems it would bring if not worked on using a lot of workhours that could be spend improving other parts of the game).
And item creation?

The sovereign automatically having governor bonuses, I wouldn't mind that, meaby he should be the "governor" type hero, then again that is dependant on playstyle, and design choice.

I do think reducing the amount of spell-casting you find on champions would be nice, not the possibility of spellcasting, its just, I feel I am finding a spellbook, not a new champion, when I hire alot of the premade champs.

My best idea, (theoretically.... thats my theories, so dont argue with that ^_^) would be to give sovereigns some kind of unique levelling system that differs a little bit off the average champion levelling system.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

I think OP has a legit concern.  Like his suggestion #1 on how to fix.  Mixed feelings on 2; un-enthused about 3 & 4.  Want item forging (5), but not for that reason.

But what about hero buffs like "destiny's gift" and "destiny's insight" -- would it help if they could be cast on the sovie?  They both seem overpriced/underpowered to me now, and they could use something to make them more useful.

And sovies won't be the strongest units in my armies until/unless they nerf "paragon".

The original concept was the FEW that can access the world's magic through the shards start to reform civilization.  Any Champion in the game could be one of those few.  The Sovereigns are just underwhelming compared to the rest of the Champions.

I think all champions should not be able to cast spells without imbuing. The sovereign should have the following spell in each school to imbue a champion:

Imbue (school): level 5 spell (100 mana) that can be cast up to 3 times on a champion to increase his spell mastery of that school by 1 level

To me the best solution is to give Sovs special traits at the start. Some super powers for lack of a better term. The history traits that we all get one of should come with more powerful abilities than one can find in the game. The extra traits one can spend points on should also be Sovereign unique so that each Sov plays with more character. 

Limiting magic use is not the answer. One powerful thing research needs to be able to do is give all heroes a spell. There are some extra spells too that can be given to only one champion. This is an important game mechanic. The key is to make Sov magic noticeably more powerful than heroes. Make Sov melee noticeably stronger than soldiers. 

I agree with this, seanw3.

i totally agree on this in fact i m proposing this since months

its not only a matter of pure power but coolness, sovereign is way less cool if it provides same stuff than champions, just a little stronger, imo

no plz

i agree it was very cool but also very hard to balance dunno

if they could find  a way to make it better and balanced id like to see it again

i m not sure i like so much this

yeah but its not enough, i think unique spells would be too much complicated but id really like to not feel like sovereign are just championsx 1.5

another way could be still reducing the multi schools of magic of champioons and add a few spell with mixed requirement that would be a prerogative of sovereigns then

I'm going to copy & paste comments I made to the sovreign in another post.....generates more conversation.

Totally going to expand on this again, as I've been thinking about FE champions alot lately and have decided to comment.

Love Mal's comments and they all hit spot on.

Your leader should be a 'super mage', the only one eventually able to access all areas of magic (with perhaps the ligh/dark limitations) and be the only one to cast city, global, and epic spells.

Your champions on the other hand, are hired hands, and should be treated as such. War mages should be as high as they get with specialization limited to tatical spells of a single magic type. Keep in mind that champions also have the wide variety of being assassins, warriors, administrators, etc....something that should be limited, but not completely unobtainable from your leader. This setup would require other champions to have a successul empire, but would still give your leader the option of specializing if, for some odd reason, he/she doesn't want to be the ALL POWERFUL mage.

Leaders should, imo, have way more detail into their design. It is an RPG afterall. The leveling is awesome, but he should also sometimes reach new plateaus of power....apprentice, mage, grand mage, etc; with each tier granting a special global bonus (or perhaps a choice of bonus). An example could be: Choose either access to a new element source type OR +1 combat to all your troop (paltipine style). Once the choice is made, it's possible you never get that choice again so it would mean each game is globally unique.

Additionally, the storyarch (if there is indeed one with this 'fallen enchantress' could/should progress according to your Leader's lvl (plateau power). Cutscenes could be done upon each new level as the story progresses. You as the player then KNOW something is coming...something big. You'd drive yourself to make the leader better in order to fight this entantress....which in turn would press the story on. Just thinking of this now.....maybe the power plateaus should be time based......say like in civ the time duration changes at different ages, in FE the powers you get change at different ages. Just throwing it out there...

Would also LOVE to see some quests that only your leader can do...especially in the mid to late game. That way, you can choose to do your own thing with your leader OR go on this quest. It's a choice. Empire vs Quest. Yet more decisions that you'd have to make.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the matter.

Hope you can use it.

Champions that are unable to cast spells without imbuing would solve this in my opinion, because it makes the sovereign creation more meaningful and the school traits (Air III - V for example) at the level ups more powerful. In addition extra spells could be found in quests that can be learned by the sovereign and the champions.

Champions would be limited in most cases to tactical spells if global, city enchantment and strategic spells are moved to level 3 - 5 of a school and sovereigns need the Imbue (school) spell, as suggested here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/428074/page/1/#3190185, to give champions the ability to cast spells.

The player should be able to increase the spell level of a school to level 3 at the sovereign creation and the sovereign should start automatically either in the life or death school at level 1, but the number of avaible points should be reduced by 1. This would fit better to the lore, because the sovereign is one of the few spellcasters in the world.

I don't think that would make for a good game mechanic. Even if you disregard that that AI will never be able to compete with human imbue choices, it seems to only add an addition step to spellcasting. I think it is more useful to discuss minor adjustments at this stage in development, like adding to Sov creation. Implementing imbuing again is unlikely to add much to the game, except more work. I think it is sufficient to limit imbuing to specific spells that are outside of a champion's traits. 

Hmmm, good point, perhaps it would be easier to implement if the sovereign automatically imbues champions with the mage path and these champions can increase a school up to the school level of the sovereign - 2.

I truly enjoy reading some of the suggestions and responses.  Whether it is increasing their power, uniqueness, or flavor I do think something needs to be done with the Sovereigns.  There is something missing.

well more levels and better stats, unless you rush the research to recruit a lvl 9 and find it very close and have the gold needed

but i WILL fight very hard for this

so much magic around is bad, it declasses the coolness of magic, there should be way more champions without magic and all, some with 1 school and A FEW like 5% with 2 schools

this way magic woudl be much more needed and spells combo would be rare and cool

also it would make every game much more different

as for now you just recruite champions so you have EVERY spells you need

and then just spam the more OP you have

reducing magic youll hand not having EVERY spell and so using different tactic each game

Hi, I like that Idea but perhaps the Main characters need to start near the top of your average RPG level of power because this isn't "boy has gift, trains and grows stronger until he is archmage" because you start the game making a city.... perhaps it should be "Archmage ---,---------,----------,-------,------- until you reach the level of living god (Titan).  ending the game with a couple of living god Enchanters fighting it out over the world, until one completes the world control spell or the enemy is killed.

Champions ofcourse would be limited to Archmage or halfway to living god.

This is the point that I was trying to make.  By making almost every champion a magic user, it makes the sovereign less important.  Granted you start with them so they are typically your highest level champion, but you could start the game with any champion and make a case for that.  There is nothing that makes the Sovereigns special.  The Champions need more, or champions need nerfed.  I would prefer to nerf the champions.

In keeping with my idea, but also satisfying other people's ideas, how about this:

1. Give all Sovs at least 3 elemental spellbooks. Once Life/Death and two others. Some would get more depending on their character. Some should start with alot of magic, but no physical ability.

2. Give heroes a maximum of 2 elemental spellbooks. That way they are noticeably weaker in magic than Sovs.

3. Make a larger number of heroes with no starting magical abilities. They will still get to use faction wide spells like Gift of Iron. They can still be imbued with the spells we get from the Magic Tree. Still, not going to be choosing Path of the Mage.

4. Now make the starting Sov traits like Warlock do more to shape the Sov. That means a few powerful starting spells, better spell damage, and natural mana production. Beastmaster should allow me to capture beasts, do 50% more damage against beasts, get +2 to Initiative, and have +1 moves. It would also be good to have small bonuses to the economy or certain techs from traits. 

5. Now the traits we spend points on should compliment the Sov traits. The ones we have are fine, but they should really be unique to Sovs, not merely part of the current system. 

The choice that needs to be created is between powerful magic and physical ability. The secondary choice should be between bonuses to your starting economy and making your Sov powerful at the start. This all needs to be separate from the faction creation options. It would be nice to see more connections between the Sov, who is supposed to be the source of your civilization, and your civilization. The Sov also needs to be more powerful at start so we don't feel so dwarfed by the champions we hire or the party of spearmen we train.

1. I would be opposed to reducing the number of champions with magic. 

2. I would be for this if it gave a magic using champ full access to the spells the Sov had.

3, 4, 5. I like these as well.

Sovereign's start with a one level advantage and the ability to lose a fight without permanent damage. Low level champions are so fragile that the permanent damage has always been a frustation for me - I'd much rather see a loss of XP they can gain back over time, but it means the sovereign will tend to widen the gap over the course of the game. I've never been able to build my sovereign to the point where he/she could take on a major opponent alone - they must always be supported by other forces. Given this, I believe any special ability for the sovereign should be leadership - buffs to initiative, accuracy, etc... for the entire army. Let the other champions be warriors, mages, assasins, etc... they will all perform much better with a strong leader. I think this should be offered as a path of leadership that is unique to the sovereign but that path should be optional. If you want to choose one of the standard paths for your sovereign - that's OK.

I think these are fantastic ideas, I would like the sovereigns to start more magic oriented, I feel rubbish to start with only a flame dart as a fire sovereign.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej