[.915][Feedback] Threat Ratings

from Elemental Forums

In playing the current version I keep finding certain abilities being under-rated and other abilities or monster being over rated.  Following are some of the threat levels I find that don't match the power of the unit/monster, as well as some similar things that do seem to match the power rating.  I'm only looking at individuals because it's not possible for me to work out how much threat should change for adding different kinds of units.

  • Ignys are over-rated something fierce.  They should be rated weak, damage dealt buffed by 10+.
  • Bear cub and Bear are about right now (weak).
  • Cave bear should be higher threat than it is.
  • Any unit that has the maul ability needs to be rated higher.  at least 3x attack rating for the threat calculation.
  • Obsidians should be a level higher  than they are due to their triple damage attack.
  • I think Silt Slags are medium, which is about right (they also have a triple damage attack).
  • High Defense needs to increase threat rating better.  >30 of all types should be medium as a minimum.
  • Spellcasters that have OK defense and OK attack (>15 of each) need to be rated higher if they have attack improvind spells (excl berserk, incl growth, giant form), or spells that drop defense of enemies or reduce accuracy of enemies (blind, curse variants).
  • Spellcasters with range damage spells need higher threat the higher their initiative.
  • Can the threat calc look at no shards that will modify damage spells?  If so, this should be taken into account to better reflect how much pwnage can be dealt out.
  • High level regeneration + high defense needs to have increased threat rating
  • Large number of ordinary units with ave-low defense need to have a reduced threat rating (a medium Sov should not be able to solo a deadly city battle and win)
  • Spellcasters with "affect all units" spells should be rated higher, especially for def debuff, and damage >10 spells after shard effect)
  • High critical chance needs to have increased threat rating (>15%)
  • Threat rating should be changed if in favourable territory (gets % bonus to def and att)

As an example of a seveely under-rated threat, my Sov at lvl 11, decked out in armour to get def >30, and an attack of 35, with maul, growth and shrink spells, accuracy of >110, spell resist >60 , regen +5, elemental resist +30%, immune to poison, initiative 28, and Hp >80 was rated as Medium.  This combo should have been at least Strong if not deadly (solo a dragon labelled deadly and took 0 damage).

a Single Ignys is labelled as medium.  But a weak melee only unit (11 att, 6 def, 30hp, 24 initiative) can win comfortably.

The same weak melee unit would get pwned by a cave bear (threat weak).  Also get owned by an obsidian (labelled weak).

 

7,070 views 17 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top


Bear cub and Bear are about right now (weak).
Cave bear should be higher threat than it is.
Any unit that has the maul ability needs to be rated higher.  at least 3x attack rating for the threat calculation.
End of quote

Love the logic ^_^

Besides this kind of change, I would much rather prefer a proper counter against maul...
Right now you currently only have the darkness spell "Blind".

Nice post though, we need that threat system updated :D

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Good points.

I would also say that strength is often relative.  It would be good to have a relative threat ratio just before you go into battle if possible.

e.g. if you're a spell-caster going up against magic-immune obsidian golems, that battle is going to be harder for you than if you were a warrior, unless of course you have direct damage spells.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top


Good point Miami.  But if the compy produced all the information for me, I'd have no fun :P  I want to be able to decide to take on that strong threat rating obsidian golem with my squishy mage.... who is lvl 40..... with all the spell mastery boosts..... and still punch through the golem's spell defense :)

That or stuff up :P  I basically think that threat should be good enough for a relative comparison before thinking tactics, and whether you or they have the ability to hurt your weaknesses.  Weak threat level stuff should NEVER be able to beat Strong threats..... even if they are perfectly aligned to the strong threat's weakness......  punching 1 level above your weight due to tactics is good.  shouldn't be able to punch two levels.

I agree with you Kongdej, the only defense against maul is currently blind, or 2x defense vs their attack....  or lvl 30+ assassins buffed to the max with dodge.  Or Wither with LOTS of death shards (do you know how funny maul looks when they have attack of 1..... :D)   Also, slow + stinking mud + ranged damage also counters it.   So there are counters.... they are just hard to get to.  Maul "was" hard to get.... bvut my last 2 games I have ended up with the berserker sword (longsword with maul)......  you don't want to see what happens with w champion with 40+ att that has a maul weapon..... :waaaa:  

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't get the thing with fearing maul... am I the only one who just wait outside the bears' range and stab them dead before they even attack? You don't need crazy powerful stuff, just two or three units of spearmens will usually be plenty. If you get unlucky, you might lose one unit of spearmen... big deal?

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top


Yeah i don't get the maul fear either, and most mauling creatures are easy to damage so you can kill them quickly. Heavy dodge works too, heavy defence, Blind, cheap decoys, good ranged attack.

You just can't solo them early easily on with your sovereign, I don't think that's a bad thing.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

It's not a fear of maul, bear and bear cub are fine being rated weak (1 militia no armour can win/almost win).  The cave bear with 15 att, no penalty to accuracy and a decent amount of hp is not a weak threat.  it is medium.

Have you seen a champion with maul and 40+ att?  That is something to fear.... }:)   or rejoice in if it is yours... :D  add in 4+ movement..... a good dash of defense, lets say 35+.... and that is maul heaven :P  That char I ended up getting over 130accuracy and 50+ attack.... and that was before I used giant form....+100% attack..... :borg:

All I'm really saying is that (especially for the cave bear (15att, 30+ hp)), an equal level, att, and hp unit without maul has 0 chance of beating it, therefore, it cannot have the same rating.  Do you  Kalin, or Droghar think that the threat rating is accurate for monsters or other units with the maul ability?  Did you guys have any feedback on the other threat changes I sounded out?  it'd be interesting to know other peoples thoughts on the overall threat ratings, and what should increase/decrease them more/less.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Everything is of course relative to how powerful you are.  If you are level 40 you are not going to fear a cave bear.  The point is that they are rated weak, and as such are often taken on early game by level 3-5 sovereigns who could be mauled to death in one attack.

If Cave Bears are weak, then they are probably the most threatening "weak" creatures in the game.  Bump them to medium with an accompanying XP boost and that would balance the unit a lot more.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Cave bears are dangerous, but lets not overhype them.  I my 0.915 AAR, I have Boris soloing cave bears with 111hps (Insane difficulty) as early as level 5 and turn 23.  Haste and regeneration allow him to usually come out of the fight at full health, except when he kills the bear with a counterattack.  He also had evade and stone skin at that point, which decreased the chance a bad maul streak would kill him.

Well, he had been lucky in getting a fending blade, but everyone gets something in the beginning.  And not everyone plays on insane.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm not a huge fan of the threat ratings. If you look at the stats, you'd think that it's a no brainer that cave bears are more dangerous than Ignys... however, as someone said, it's all relative, but that cuts both ways. For example, Ignys are a bit faster, it has spitfire (range fire attack) and some fire damage as part of its normal attack as well (reducing the effectiveness of armors). So while I might be able to wait for the bear with a couple of spearmens and take no damage ganking him, the Ignys might be able to damage me thanks to initiative and range. It won't WIN, but the result would seem to indicate that it's more dangerous than something I could take out without being hurt. On the other hand, if you're looking at it from a solo perspective, and you can't take out the bear quick enough, then the opposite applies.

IMO, it's just too hard to put one number on something to determine its strength. I'd bet that's one of the reason the AI has so much trouble (when it doesn't have tons of bonuses), it's relying on a number to determine threat instead of looking for counter methods. So instead of worrying about if a fire elemental is strong/medium/weak, we should be more worried about trying to get the AI to use fire resistance against it.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

You're right Kalin.  If the Ai cuold pick out weaknesses and guard against strengths, it would make it play better.  And as for how tudjiy takes out the cave bear, my original post would have boosted your Sov's threat rating due to the regen factor, and higher defense :)  

I still think that I should be able to line up ALL the monsters, and various levels and equipmented Sov/champs, in order of threat rating and not have anything able to beat something 2 levels of threat above where they are.  Also, if something is rated higher, and loses consistently to a number of lower threat rated things, it should not be rated where it is.

I wonder if the devs would let us have a standalone tactical battle simulator where we could load different monsters or champs into it to see who comes out on top?  I'd love to see what wins between ignys and cave bear.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Well if I could control that Ignys, it would win every time. The combination of higher init and + range attack means that if you just keep away and use the range attack whenever it's off cool down... you'd always win as long as you don't screw up and get yourself cornered. The bear would just be running around chasing its death.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top


doesn't the bear have 3 movement vs ignys 2?

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting StillSingle, reply 13

doesn't the bear have 3 movement vs ignys 2?
End of StillSingle's quote

If you are trying to get 1st hit on bears the AI is pretty blunt vs obvious... "abuses"... Just move 4 squares away from a bear, it will run 3 squares in your direction, 1 square between you and its your turn.

Also, the igny have some flame thrower ability, not sure how it works but I think its a 3 ranged attack, giving 1 or 2 free hits before the bear gets any action.

Then again, I still think ignys have too few hp to survive any real threat.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

I'm pretty sure both has movement of 3 (I don't have the data files with me here atm). With higher initiative, all you need is a bit of patience, wait for the double turns and attack on those, then run away after. That would also give plenty of time for your skill to recharge.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

My defense against maul is to close my eyes and cry until it's over.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top


LOL DC!!  Sounds better than my banging on the desk everytime it registers a hit! :P

You can get a lvl 1 ignys from a quest.  THe flame breath weapon is AOE, but only 2 range (i think).  Problem with a level 1 ignys..... 8 hp.....

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Maul. It should be renamed Molest because its so damn offensive :P