[0.915] Champion Traits Assessment: The Defender

from Elemental Forums

This post is a continuation of the Assessment found here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/425698

 

The current Champion setup is a great on in concept. We have five strong archetypes that we get to use to craft our heroes as we see fit; the strong Warrior, the skilled Assassin, the noble Defender, the wise Governor, and the powerful Mage. The issue I see is not with the framing of the system, but the implementation of the skills. Too many of them are in strange places or across specializations, which cause the identities of the archetypes to be watered down, and actually serves to make most of them less appealing in general. I feel it is a problem of cleaning up identities more than anything, and my overall assessment is being done with that in mind.

I begin with my assessment of:

The Defender.

Defenders are a bit harder to clearly define with Warriors running about, but given the types of abilities they are given, they really feel like Generals rather than stand-alone heroes. I think there is quite a bit of room for this type of hero in the game, provided they get the trait support. In terms of conceptual archetypes of the Defender, we have the Stalwart Defender (currently well supported), and the Cunning General.

 

Trait MinLevel Trait Bonus Gross Bonus
Path of the Defender 4 +20 Weight, +1 Hp/Level +20 Weight, +1 Hp/Level  (+4 Min)
  Defender 1 5 +5 Defense when Defending +5 Def Auto Defend
  Defender 2 6 +10 Defense when Defending +15 Def Auto Defend
  Defender 3 7 +15 Defense when Defending +30 Def Auto Defend
  Endurance 1 5 +1 Hp per level +2 Hp per level (+10 Hps Min)
  Endurance 2 6 +1 Hp per level +3 Hp per level (+18 Hps Min)
  Endurance 3 7 +1 Hp per level +4 Hp per level (+28 Hps Min)
  Endurance 4 8 +1 Hp per level +5 Hp per level (+40 Hps Min)
  Guardian 1 5 +2 to Army's Dodge +2 Army Dodge
  Guardian 2 6 +4 to Army's Dodge +6 Army Dodge
  Guardian 3 7 +6 to Army's Dodge +12 Army Dodge
  Shieldwall 5 +5 to Army's Defense  
  Stun 5 Cause enemy to lose their next action  
  Imm. to Counter. 5 Immune to Counterattack  


The Good Stuff:

  • Guardian: Fantastic. Dodge is hard to come by in FE and this hands it out to the entire stack. At low levels it isn’t much, but the Guardian 3 ability hands out a whopping 12 Dodge. Stack that atop some shield wearing folks and you are looking at impossible to hit tanks.
  • Shieldwall: Solid non-scaling trait that essentially gives chainmail to everyone in the army.
  • Immune to Counter Attack: I’ve never seen this one come up, but I would take it every time. Not that the Defender is out dealing a pile of Damage, but this helps them take even less when at the front lines.

 

Ill Fit Abilities:

  • Endurance: Technically, this fits well here. However, the Defender has no other real abilities allowing it to back up the giant stack of Hps that they get. They just get to take lots of hits. This should be shared with the Path of the Warrior.
  • Defender: This line of traits is boring. I was recently made aware that it only impacts the Defender character (worse than I assumed), but works whenever the Defender does not attack (sorta better than I assumed). Still, it represents a missed opportunity to attack, or benefit other units. Still Boring.
  • Stun: Lose your own action for a chance to force an enemy to lose theirs. Meh.

Recommendations:

Defenders need more flavor. They aren’t bad, they just have some of their abilities on other classes, and aren’t really exciting otherwise.

  • Tactician: This ability, which is currently Warrior only, belongs to Defenders.
  • Leadership: As above. Leadership belongs with the more offense-oriented Defenders.
  • Defenders need a couple good one-off abilities. Warriors have them. Assassins have them. Give Defenders a retinue of 2 City Defenders that spawn with them in combat.
  • Defenders should also have something that improves the size of their stack (+1 Army size with them, up to +3). This will help make the Magic tree a bit more viable, as players will become less reliant upon Civ and Warfare tech to field armies of useful size.
  • There should be a few “Battle Cry” type abilities which give good short term buffs to their entire army. Things such as ignore armor, immune to Counter Attack, Tactical Regen. Many possibilities. These Champions are already intended to be mighty Generals based upon what skills they carry. Treat them like it.

 

Also Noteworthy is a post here about how the army-wide benefit abilities need to not stack. I agree whole-heartedly with that. WAY too much opportunity for Abuse any other way.

 

Finally, I think starting at level 15 each and every Path needs to start getting access to some pretty over-the-top abilities. The sky is the limit here, and I’m not going to take the time to really illustrate all of them, but if you can get a champion to Level 15, you deserve some crazy stuff for your effort.

5,224 views 14 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top


Can you please clarify how the auto-defence works?

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Droghar, reply 1

Can you please clarify how the auto-defence works?
End of Droghar's quote

Based upon the XML, units stacked with the Defender get +<whatever> to their Defense when the player selects Auto-Resolve. +30 Defense is amazing, but requires you to skip an entire aspect of the game to benefit.

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

So it doesn't have any impact on tactical combat?  I would have thought those defense bonuses would at least apply until the unit attacks.  Otherwise Defender1/2/3 is even more useless.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting StevenAus, reply 3
So it doesn't have any impact on tactical combat?  I would have thought those defense bonuses would at least apply until the unit attacks.  Otherwise Defender1/2/3 is even more useless.
End of StevenAus's quote

 

There is no indication that it does in the XML. For Defender 1 the exact text is:

<<GameModifier>
  <ModType>Unit</ModType>
  <Attribute>AdjustUnitStat</Attribute>
  <StrVal>UnitStat_Tactical_Auto_Defense_Boost</StrVal>
  <Value>5</Value>
Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

I haven't taken a peek at the XML, but based on my in-game observations auto-defense is basically what you get when you tell your unit to pass its turn.  Thus, a unit with no defense and Defender 3 will have 35 armor when it passes its turn (auto-defends), instead of the standard 5.  This fits perfectly well with the idea of a Defender basically blocking paths to more vulnerable units and tanking everything that tries to cross its path.   I personally think it's kind of a boring trait as well, but based on what I've seen in-game, it works as intended in tactical combat.

EDIT: you're reading the XML wrong.  Notice it says <StrVal>UnitStat_Tactical_Auto_Defense_Boost</StrVal>, as opposed to Auto_Resolve_Defense_Boost.  Tactical auto defense is just a dumb way of saying your unit didn't attack that turn in tactical combat.

 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Thanks, I didn't know that.  That explains why some units get Defending status back after having already attacked.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top


Stun is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You do a normal attack that doesn't miss, AND you have a chance to stop them taking their next action.......  How is that Meh?? :omg:

Agree with you on the imune to counter trait.  It would be awesome.  With all the HP boosts as well, give it a giant hammer, and BAM.  You have a super tank dealing huge damage!!

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Emperorjarin, reply 5
I haven't taken a peek at the XML, but based on my in-game observations auto-defense is basically what you get when you tell your unit to pass its turn.  Thus, a unit with no defense and Defender 3 will have 35 armor when it passes its turn (auto-defends), instead of the standard 5.  This fits perfectly well with the idea of a Defender basically blocking paths to more vulnerable units and tanking everything that tries to cross its path.   I personally think it's kind of a boring trait as well, but based on what I've seen in-game, it works as intended in tactical combat.
End of Emperorjarin's quote

 

Ahh... It is simultaneously less and more interesting. I shall amend the above comments appropriately.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Malsqueek, reply 8
Ahh... It is simultaneously less and more interesting. I shall amend the above comments appropriately.
End of Malsqueek's quote
I know right?

Also, just noticed this:

Stun: Lose your own action for a chance to force an enemy to lose theirs. Meh.
End of quote
  You don't lose a turn when you use it.  I've had Stun on a few champs over the course of several games, and not once did they lose their turn using Stun.  The only ability I'm aware of that stuns the unit using it is the double damage one in the Warrior tree (forget what it's called).

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

My Path of the Defender champ from a few games ago had Gladiator's Armor (previously Chain Mail), the Helm that prevents crits and other good armor and a decent weapon.  I spent pretty much the whole game soloing (no other units in army) with virtually no spell use, even against extremely high attack armies.  Unless there are four or five or six heavy melee types, you wait for the enemy to approach, hit them with Stun, most likely make them miss a turn, hit them again, and 9 times out of ten you have knocked a man out of the unit to dramatically reduce damage when it's their turn.  Basically it is a free hit with a chance to make the enemy lose their turn, and usable every 3-4 actions.  With decent to high armor, decent weapon and the helm which protects against criticals, the +1HP per level trait, and Stun, you can basically solo almost any army on the map or in a city.  Btw: my Defender even had a few injuries too.  That didn't stop them.

Stun with the right champion setup is one of the ultimate soloing skills currently.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't think you lose a turn with stun.  It's a regular attack with a chance to stun.  But you don't lose a turn.

That said this is a nice series of posts you've put up and some good ideas too.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Maybe instead of the Defending defense bonus for Defender, there could be a percentage chance to halve damage from attacks or spells?  Maybe +10% at each level for a total of 30% at Defender 3 for the whole army?

And on a slightly related topic, maybe Ironeers could get a 10% bonus to this for each Ironeer unit only (ie. Ironeer units could get up to 40% of taking half damage from attacks or spells if there was a Defender 3 in their army), to relate to their "dwarf-like" status?  This would also help when Curse is cast and removes all defense.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top


Thanks for the clarification everyone.

Defenders can be great fighters as with the right equipment and buffs you damage the enemy as they attack you.

Counterattack is the main one, you'd certainly use a sword with a defender. Also spells like Mantle of Fire, items that do elemental damage to attackers, etc. Add some defensive / healing buffs to the defender and he can pretty much sit there and kill everything despite not dishing out a lot of damage in attack.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

I wish the trait trees were setup more like the following.  Some basic stuff followed by some really cool ones:

Defender I/II/III = +5 defense/+10 defense/+15 defense

Endurance I/II/III = +1 hp per lvl/+1 hp per lvl/+1 hp per lvl

Resistance I/II/III = +5 resistance/+10 resistance gold/+15 resistance

Defender I + Endurance I unlocks = Leadership I/II/III = +2 to army size / +1 per level to army's defense / army gets +1 tactical movement and is immune to counterattack

Defender I + Resistance I unlocks Guardian I/II/III = +1 per level to army's dodge / army's dodge added to resistance for resistance checks / army takes -25% less damage and gets +1 defender

Endurance I + Resistance I unlocks Sentinel I/II/III = +2 tactical regeneration / 50% chance to stun any unit attacking Sentinel  / +25% damage returned to attacker