Suggestion: make it easier to get monsters and make them beefier too

from Elemental Forums

OK I've been playing some serious HOMM6 over the past 2 weeks; sometimes whole days o_O

I could definitely have done something more constructive with my time but never mind. One of the things I really like about that game (and HOMM3, which I used to play, and it remains a classic game that's aged very well) is the wide variety of creatures that each army has and all of their varied abilities - this got me thinking about FE.

By and large the armies consist of men (or humanoids) with different configs of weapons and thats great as the core of an army, but I'd quite like to see some fantasy monster goodness to supplement these armies too.

Now there are some nods by Stardock in this direction e.g. Summon spells and the civ allies techs but nevertheless armies rarely include them, and there are some very good reasons for this:

1) The civ tech allies make it ridiculously hard to get hold of these monsters - the monster dens are as rare as hens teeth and are often faction restricted anyway (damn it!) so more games than not I don't use these units even if I have the techs. Also, to use these units you need to clear the defending monsters, so they are often superceded when you get them anyway, which is so ass backwards to me

2) Many of the ally monsters are also humanoids, which is kind of unexciting.

3) Many of the monsters are outright weak and you wouldnt want to use em anyway, plus they are sometimes solo units!

 

Monsters in armies should be fun, but it's so hard to do at the moment and the benefits are so minor that it's hardly worth the hassle, so some suggestions on how to expand on this area of the game:

Make it easier to recruit monsters, some suggestions are:

A) more dens that players can build on placed on the map - a wider variety too

B ) allow all players to build on all dens but give the factions affinity for different monster types that allow them to recruit at a significant discount and have a raised cap on those units - there could be some limits such as kingdoms not recruiting demons but these should be much looser than currently I think

C) this is a bit radical but WTH - allow players to recruit from all monster dens (attacking them pacifies/subjugates the den rather than removes it) - dip cap in the recruiting costs & unit caps will place a limit on the number of troops anyway

D) allow players to spend dip cap and gold (needs both) to bribe monsters on the map - if a faction has an affinity for those monsters, they get a discount bribing them - would require civics techs so it's not available right at the start, so the monsters still limit expansion and the dip cap costs will make it hard to bribe many of them. The later civics techs give discounts in recruitment from dens and bribing and expand the range of monsters that can be bribed

Beef up humanoid monsters:

If we are going to have humanoids as recruitable monsters then can we at least form them in squads and larger groups? How about being able to change their equipment and give them items that you can give to normal troops? Even better, how about you can equip them with a special roster of equipment for that monster e.g. magic warpaint for wildings - as you research better weapons this could lead to improved equipment for these monsters which represent a synthesis of the monster tribes ideas plus your factions - some of these humanoids are supposed to represent primitive cultures so there could be some cool tribal mysticism voodoo stuff maybe

 

Beef up the bigger monsters!

The monsters roaming around the map are wild but if they can be tamed then their raw power could be harnessed and married with the benefits of civilisation to create some very frightening things. Some ideas off the top of my head:

1) Armour plating for pretty much all the monsters - as you research armour you should be able to upgrade your monsters with armour too, of course it should cost ALOT to upgrade them but all monsters should be able to wear some form of armour plating/barding if it's been crafted to fit and the monster has been trained to use it - the only real exception is the elementals and shrills

2) Weapons for monsters - if you have the tech, why can't you give your troll a steel lightning mace rather than a tree stump? Again, it should cost alot, but it should be doable - because a troll is dumb, it should be limited to blunt weapons but it should get weapon upgrades. Other monsters could get things like spiked plating/helmets to boost their attack so weapons need not be totally restricted to monsters with hands

3) Monsters as mounts - I want to be able to ride a dragon or a spider - maybe it should only be champion and level restricted (you would need to be brave!) but it should be doable

4) Magic and monsters - some of the monsters could be augmented by magic items - e.g. elementals should be given elemental items that correspond with their type - e.g. runestones, weapons - they could be supercharged according to how many of the respective shard you control

5) Flesh golems! Magnar has flesh magic - maybe they could make some scary frankenstein monster creations? }:)

 

This post is much longer than I initially thought but I wanted to throw these ideas out there - fantasy armies should have monsters and they should be meaningful. Hopefully Derek will pick up some of these ideas and run with them.

 

 

 

3,050 views 7 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

My main problem with monsters is that they are too weak and hard to get. By the time you get most techs for monsters you could have chain armor that renders those monsters totally useless.

Also you can get the tech for Darklings and Wildlings early game but they by the time their lair transforms into a improvable den 150 turns have passed. Kinda defies the the entire point doesn't it? Oh ya and they have horrible horrible stats.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top


Yeah darklings, wildlings, and mercenaries are all incredibly weak as they stand - though at least they are very cheap and they don't cost maintenance (I think) but they don't scale up with trained armies at all which is a shame - I reckon these guys could be developed further so that they are appealing - I'll give it some thought and post some suggestions

 

Also:

Kael just posted about Resoln getting bound spiders as units, which is good news - That's another nod towards monsters in armies, maybe each race is going to get a special unit, so far we have golems for Gilden, slaves for Magnar, and spiders for Resoln. I'm pretty sure the mods will be coming up with much more to expand on armies and I'm looking forward to checking out their ideas

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

I like the wildling lairs a lot... it's like tons of free population every couple of turns. Useful in making smaller cities grow fast. Heh.

As for usefulness... probably the only monsters worth getting right now are drakes and dragons.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Hi Kalin, I wasnt aware of the pop boost from wildings - that's good to know. I'd still like to see some more stuff done with wildings and darklings to help them scale up. If all the branches are supposed to represent different paths to victory then the monster allies for civics need to be stronger as the military and magic paths have much more aggressive capabilities. If anything, the latest beta has made civics even weaker as an independent path as it no longer provides any weapons and armour at all.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

In terms of the Mercenary mechanic being discussed in this thread, the Devs have already shown they are capable of making awesome unique units with the quest reward units (spear brothers, and archers who are awesome even toned down), and the presence of the Knights of Asok.

 

I don't see why the Civ Mercenary function can't simply allow the hiring of these types of units at each stage, with the higher levels opening up larger groups to be hired of the previous unlocked versions.

 

In terms of monsters getting harder, I think that for the most part the easier stuff should be cleared out early, and the harder stuff waits till later, so if the tougher stuff starts spawning roamers at faster rates later in the game, through quantity they will get tougher. There is no sense in having mercenaries become uber-mercs, but it makes sense for more death demons to kick out.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Personally I'm a huge fan of the neutral camps as they are (although variety would definitely be welcome).  I tend to focus heavily on the Civilization research tree, so I'm usually able to acquire neutrals fairly early and use them in lieu of training my own weak militia.  Having 0-upkeep units chilling on my outposts to keep the wandering wolves and such at bay is also a huge bonus.

My point is, yeah if you rush Warfare techs then you might find the neutral camps lagging behind your own stuff.  However, there are a lot of ways to play, and grabbing some early-mid game Knights of Asok to do my bidding while I focus Civilization pump out infrastructure buildings and Wonders is BOSS AS HELL.  The phenomenon that the first replier is referring to isn't an issue - it's just a really awesome example of great play balancing.  I think it would be a real tragedy if changes were made such that you could have your cake (rush warfare) and eat it too (get powerful early-game neutrals).  

 

I should add that my only experience is with Kingdom, so I can't comment on the Empire neutral camps.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Malsqueek, reply 5
In terms of monsters getting harder, I think that for the most part the easier stuff should be cleared out early, and the harder stuff waits till later, so if the tougher stuff starts spawning roamers at faster rates later in the game, through quantity they will get tougher. There is no sense in having mercenaries become uber-mercs, but it makes sense for more death demons to kick out.
End of Malsqueek's quote

I think it is already the case, weaker monters near your starting city and more powerful monsters a little bit farther, but yeah, monster lair should spawn stronger monsters as turns pass, although umberdroths are already doing this bidding

hubichakakov, 0-upkeek units, what a good idea, must give it a try