[SUGGESTION] How to solve the monster rampage "problem"

OR if they are rampaging because of AI placing outposts, why not have the closest outposts and cities be the object of their ire, instead of some random one somewhere?

Monsters should never leave their lairs. NEVER

The AI should avoid dropping outposts/cities next to lairs but if someone does than that lair should spawn an army to destroy it.

If lair guardians can be lured than they will be.

Maybe so, but guardians should still be able to attack pests in adjacent tiles without moving to them.

every monster lair should have a ZOC, if the player or the AI inveades the ZOC, the monster chase them, this adds a lot of interest to the first part of the game, you have to consider either bulding a strong enough army to loot the lairs, or to build your first city, then when you have enough place, expand you empire

monsters rampaging impose a pace to the game, without them it would be almost a sandbox

finally you can choose monster density in the options

I usually play on Challenging difficulty and can't say I've ever encountered problematic monster rampaging. 

In fact monsters are finally "Waking up," and their AI seems just about right at this point.

I don't think anyone is complaining that the monster AI is better (which it is) or that they don't have a ZoC that works properly (they do, and it's great). The complaints are that monsters are coming from out of nowhere early in the game )because their lairs were being destroyed while they were off it) and they destroy cities before you could have a prayer of being prepared.

In my most recent game, I saw an Umberdroth come barreling from out of nowhere (I had scouted at least 15 tiles in all directions and not seen any) towards my capital city some time around year 170. This was still FAR too early for me to have tried attacking an Umberdroth, and I would not have even gotten close if I'd seen him. I think, however, he was intent upon an outpost past my capital, because I destroyed it and the turn after he beelined back out.

I'm not certain exactly what the AI does with homeless monsters, but it seems to randomly select a faction feature somewhere on the map, and make for it at full speed, to die at the hands of its defenders or crush it utterly. Range from the lair's original location seems to have no consideration.

Combined with the AI's new VERY aggressive looting of lairs and goodie huts, the Lair guardians' newfound aggro makes it common for the AI to go loot a goodie hut near really tough monsters, pull them off their tiles, then move around them to break their lair.

Stupidity10 has it right. Lairs should never ever lose their guardian. They should spawn creatures to roam the world at a rate commensurate with the current turn and their creature strength. Which is to say Weak lairs would produce wandering spiders or bandits with relative frequency starting on turn one. Death Demons would not start kicking out troops at all until mid game, and not often until late game. This would maintain the nice monster density and wilderness threat that the "I totally play on Hard and find it Easy" people keep talking about loving while eliminating the infuriating and random quirk of monsters losing their lairs and punishing the rest of us. PLUS, we would have access to a wider and deeper pool of XP from the hostile environment, as well as more encouragement to try to clear out monster dens near our cities.

I think Malqueaks comments are dead on, plus he has that lovely portrait. My experiences support this completely.

Yes, if something disturbs the monster, it should get off its ass and attack it (the source of the disturbance).  Once destroyed, the monster should return to its lair.  done.

Stupidity10, Malqueaks and Glowing_Ember are all correct.

Ausland, if monsters can be provoked to leave their lairs then it becomes very easy to bait them off and take the loot. Just use a pioneer (I still don't get why pioneers are the cheapest units, it is bizarre), usually a good exchange to get the loot.

Hence the comments that monsters need to refuse to leave their lairs. However anything they can attack while still finishing the turn on their lair could be fair game...

The reason why monsters are rampaging isn't that the AI is destroying their lairs, it is that the AI is building cities and outposts right beside them and they rampage when placed under ZoC. This could be easily fixed by having monsters home in on the source of the ZoC and then return to their lair. To prevent thieving the lairs could be invincible until their guardian is destroyed first.

More easily resolved by the guardian never leaving its lair, and the ZoC dramatically increasing the lair's spawn rate, which the spawned creatures are focused upon the city in question (like you mentioned)

If the monster leaves its lair for any reason, the AI will take its lair and it will become a wandering monster. Solution=Monster doesn't leave lair.

I also think that guardian monsters shouldn't leave their lairs, but should attack units in adjacent tiles. They should have a zoc, and spawn wandering monsters.

I agree it shouldn't leave the lair, but it should be able to still attack units/cities/outposts that are adjacent without moving.

However, the idea of the main monster staying there and only spawns roaming works too.

I guess what I don't want is for the monster not to move and the opponents units still walk past these supposed bottlenecks unharmed.  That bugs me.

Slightly off topic but still in the Monster Lair area code, I would like to see monster lairs upgraded. If they level up from picking off random travelers I would like there lair to get bigger or upgrade the loot since maybe they are protecting more. Also if they attack and take a city I would like that to be there new lair. Something in that realm if there is nothing like that yet.

Your solution makes sense, but I think that certain types of monsters should have different behavioral characteristics. For example: obsidian golems NEVER leave their lairs and remain "silent guardians" over their tile. Umberdroths, however, are territorial beasts that will destroy any improvement or invading army within one tile of their lair. 

This is more consistent with some of the lore of the game, and balancing could be implemented much like DsRaider suggested: don't allow the lair to be looted without the monster being destroyed first. Also? Tether the monster to its layer (it returns after a VERY brief chase), but allow roaming parties (spawned by the lair) to wander across the land unimpeded. 

There are some very good ideas in this thread. I especially like the idea of monsters gaining levels and loot based on attacking whatever comes near its ZOC.

I honestly can't see why many, if not all of them, could be implemented in the game.

More free ideas for Stardock to capitalize on.

Also, I could see the main monster staying, but lower level versions spawning off until the main one is defeated.

Considering that the player attacks without moving into the square, this could certainly be implemented, and would be a great way of implementing the aggressive behaviors of really dangerous monsters before they start spawning.

In terms of various behaviors, that would be great, but I would still restrict that behavior to the spawned creatures.

And late game some units should "recruit" others that they meet to form more formidable enemies mid/late- game

What they really need to do is fix the tooltip for the world difficulty setting. It still says it changes the AI level. When they do fix it they need to to be extremely specific. For instance...

Easy: Monsters are low level and only wander 5 tiles. Lairs will not attack adjacent tiles.

Normal: Monsters are normal levels and wander 6 tiles. Lairs will not attack adjacent tiles.

Challenging: Monsters are normal levels and wander 7 tiles. Lairs will attack adjacent tiles.

Hard: Monsters are high levels and wander 8 tiles. Lairs will attack adjacent tiles.

Ridiculous: Monsters are very high levels and wander 8 tiles. Lairs will attack adjacent tiles.

This is just some random numbers but they need to be this specific. A lot of people don't understand how monsters work and really that is Stardock's fault because they have never explained it. They have to put the exact mechanisms in front of people.

It would be nice if monster spawning was more common and gradual instead of 1 black widow, than 100 turns later 1 BW and a RH, repeat.

This is a thread full of good ideas

Hopefully the devs give it a read

Wanderers should have a limited movement radius from their spawn lair. Some of them are really tough like Umberdroths and Assassin Demons. If they have unlimited wandering range they will end up surprise attacking cities like they do now. Tough monsters shouldn't be attacking cities from beyond the FoW with no warning. Instead wandering monsters should be much more local and deny players the ability to settle in certain areas. If you put them on a timer before they spawn then there will be nothing to really prevent players from expanding into the tougher areas, it is easy to settle around lairs most the time.