[.91] Magnar Game Observations and Pics

from Elemental Forums

Started a small game on hard difficulty with 3 hard AIs. They were Tarth, Gilden, Roseln, and I was Magnar. I modded in some of the .911 changes like the Sov hp and Stoneskin nerf.

I restarted the game a few times because of bad starting locations. I think there is to much variance between possible city locations. A range from 2/2 to 5/5 is too much, it encourages reloading and is unnecessary. I suggest in general that that range be smaller and in particular that food resources stop increasing the fertility of land around them.  Food resources should probably also stop spawning at start locations. I once found a spot with 6 food because it had wheat, an orchard, and a river.

I founded my Capital on a 4/4 spot beside some Iron and a river. Built a pioneer first, then a workshop.

Then Magnar beat up a Rock Spiderling in hand to hand, and fire bolted a Banished Ogre to death. Got Anguine Edge which allowed Magnar to handily defeat most monster in hand to hand. Recruited the hero Gazdeh and then had him take out a mites nest. It was actually very close but he managed to beat the mites. Magnar did the Butcherman quest and got the potion.

Unluckily my main city was placed right in the middle of a large patch of fertile ground. The only places around me I could settle on were on the very edges of that  patch and were only 2/2. So I ended up with only my capital and a bunch of outposts.This ended up being a problem because I kept running out of food in my main city because the prestige was so high. This slowed down my research and production.

In many games I have played the city minimum distance limit prevents you from placing any expansions. I feel that in order to decrease the huge and random effect of fertile land placement on the game their should be lv1-2 Death and Life spells that allow you to expand fertile land one or two tiles for significant mana cost. It would only be castable on tiles that already border fertile land. This would help players with a bad start position turn 2/2 spots into 3/3. It would also totally fit into the lore because channelers are supposed to be able to revitalize the land. Again it would mostly serve to fix randomly assigned handicaps that would cause most player to restart their game.

I think that forest on unfertile land should really have its own art that looks more like the 3D version for a whole lot of reasons.

Magnar leveled after killing some monsters and then encountered an ogre. Which he proceeded to Soulburn to death easily. Some powerful knights of Akosh blocked me from exploring the south. 

Tarth realized I had no army so they tried to blackmail me. I refused and they declared war. They also built 2 cities in highly questionable locations, usually right beside Wildlands in 2/2  spots. Tarth sent some nice armies after me but they didn't seem to use armor and didn't effectively combine their armies and champions. I countered them with some custom spearmen and my champions. Wages on those spearmen really absorbed my income but then I realized I could build slaves so I spammed them to back up by 2 spearmen.

Meanwhile in my city and for research I focused on maxing food.

I walked a rather long distance over to the other side of a mountain range where I found Tarth's homeland. Wow was their start better then mine. They had room for 3 cities with values of around 4/4. Their capital even had wheat. This is what I mean when I say there is too much randomness.

They started spamming mages which was annoying but my spearmen were around level 6 with leather armor and they focused their shots on my slaves. Magnar could basically firebolt them to death in one shot and I had plenty of mana. They also had troops with burning axes but no armor. After taking the first of their cities I finally got to use the slaving ability to boost population. It didn't take long for the population in my conquered city to  rise to higher then it was before it was conquered.

I couldn't take their main city because it was full of mages but then for some reason they started to remove the mages from the city 1 or 2 at a time and I killed them one by one until the city was weak enough to take. They also still really failed to use champions to back up their troops.

To be continued....

5,750 views 18 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top
Nice play-by-play. I always enjoy reading these sorts of posts about game experiences. And good observations regarding randomness and the AI. I agree it would be awesome to have a spell that grows the fertile land. And conversely, I'd like to see one that destroys fertile land. How cool would it be to cripple strong enemy cities by destroying all their sources of food and materials?
Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

If there's not a lot of randomness than every match would be more similar/boring. The system doesn't encourage reloading, it encourages making due with what you have and adjusting your strategy for each game. If you sit there and spam ctrl-N or whatever until you get an ideal spot, then that's your prerogative but it's not what I do and I don't want an identical vanilla start every single game. If I have to deal with a 3/2 start then so be it, I will. It's not a huge deal considering how long it takes before anything really happens in terms of warfare, and by then you will probably have multiple cities in hopefully better locations.

Groupy 2 - Organize multiple applications into grouped tabs on your Windows desktop
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Sanati, reply 2
If there's not a lot of randomness than every match would be more similar/boring. The system doesn't encourage reloading, it encourages making due with what you have and adjusting your strategy for each game. If you sit there and spam ctrl-N or whatever until you get an ideal spot, then that's your prerogative but it's not what I do and I don't want an identical vanilla start every single game. If I have to deal with a 3/2 start then so be it, I will. It's not a huge deal considering how long it takes before anything really happens in terms of warfare, and by then you will probably have multiple cities in hopefully better locations.
End of Sanati's quote

There is a difference between randomness that effects how you play a game and randomness that effects how well you play. Getting a 3/5 instead of a 5/3 is randomness that makes your experience different and allows you to try different strategies. Getting a 3/2 with no room for expansions is just a totally random handicap that you can do nothing about.  It doesn't require you try out a new strategy you will simply do the normal strategy worse.  Also randomness effects the AI. You could start a game and play for an hour and easily beat the computer because they had a truly horrible starting location. I agree terrain should effect your strategy but it shouldn't be simply a scale of advantage.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

One of my starts was on a small peninsula with room for only one city. The exit from the peninsula was blocked by some nasty mob.

The generated maps have too many bottlenecks. The special quest areas that are surrounded by mountains take up a lot of room. Doesn't help that when a city gets razed and you can't build there again.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Perhaps a Cleanse Land spell should allow you to rebuild at the site of a razed city at an appropriately high mana cost. I also like the idea for a spell that extends fertile land.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

The randomness is part of the charm and something to overcome. I cannot remember ever setteling my first city in a 4/4. Its normally 4/3 or 4/2.

Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Sanati, reply 2
If there's not a lot of randomness than every match would be more similar/boring. The system doesn't encourage reloading, it encourages making due with what you have and adjusting your strategy for each game. If you sit there and spam ctrl-N or whatever until you get an ideal spot, then that's your prerogative but it's not what I do and I don't want an identical vanilla start every single game. If I have to deal with a 3/2 start then so be it, I will. It's not a huge deal considering how long it takes before anything really happens in terms of warfare, and by then you will probably have multiple cities in hopefully better locations.
End of Sanati's quote

Agreed I perfer the randomness. I don't want each game to start with a excellent spot. I like playing with the hand that is delt to me. But perhaps a Starting location option can be put in if you perfer a top notch spot.

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 3



Quoting Sanati,
reply 2
If there's not a lot of randomness than every match would be more similar/boring. The system doesn't encourage reloading, it encourages making due with what you have and adjusting your strategy for each game. If you sit there and spam ctrl-N or whatever until you get an ideal spot, then that's your prerogative but it's not what I do and I don't want an identical vanilla start every single game. If I have to deal with a 3/2 start then so be it, I will. It's not a huge deal considering how long it takes before anything really happens in terms of warfare, and by then you will probably have multiple cities in hopefully better locations.


There is a difference between randomness that effects how you play a game and randomness that effects how well you play. Getting a 3/5 instead of a 5/3 is randomness that makes your experience different and allows you to try different strategies. Getting a 3/2 with no room for expansions is just a totally random handicap that you can do nothing about.  It doesn't require you try out a new strategy you will simply do the normal strategy worse.  Also randomness effects the AI. You could start a game and play for an hour and easily beat the computer because they had a truly horrible starting location. I agree terrain should effect your strategy but it shouldn't be simply a scale of advantage.
End of DsRaider's quote

Yes it does. If you start out in a 3/2 with no apparent room for expansion then you have to adjust you stratagy which means take from your enemies. Scout out the land find a nice spot then take it. Yes you may have to fight for it and run the risk of loosing the game but that is part of the challange. Not every thing is or should be equal.

 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 8
Yes it does. If you start out in a 3/2 with no apparent room for expansion then you have to adjust you stratagy which means take from your enemies.
End of Bellack's quote

Who have a way better start then you? So they have more cities, higher population, much more production, not to mention the defensive stat bonus and militia. As far as strategies go that one is pretty bad. If you feel like handicapping yourself that's your prerogative and you can set the AI to ridiculous, but don't think other players want totally random and arcane handicaps.  I think it is pretty widely accepted common sense that in games players should have fairly even starting positions.

 

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top



I couldn't take their main city because it was full of mages but then for some reason they started to remove the mages from the city 1 or 2 at a time and I killed them one by one until the city was weak enough to take. They also still really failed to use champions to back up their troops.

End of quote

This happened in my game too.  Relias took my city and had 9 armies in it.  Then he started popping them out 2 at a time for no reason (which I would easily pick off) until there was only 1 left to defend the city.  Brad, will you please fix that?

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Since this is a matter of opinion, perhaps it would be useful to have user controls that let you determine the degree of randomness in the setup position.  Or at least, a mod that does this.

 

For myself, I would want a decent but not great starting position.  If I can't get that, if I'm in the bottleneck Nathan E mentions (and I have been), I restart.  If that happens to too many players, too often, that's a failure of that system within the game.  Can't say my choices would be typical, but I'm reading others here who feel similarly.

 

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 3

There is a difference between randomness that effects how you play a game and randomness that effects how well you play. Getting a 3/5 instead of a 5/3 is randomness that makes your experience different and allows you to try different strategies. Getting a 3/2 with no room for expansions is just a totally random handicap that you can do nothing about.  It doesn't require you try out a new strategy you will simply do the normal strategy worse.
End of DsRaider's quote

I pretty much agree with this.

Due to the way we handle cities in this game, starting locations should never be "bad" imho, just different.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Is there any sort of plan for ships and other vessels in future?

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 12

Quoting DsRaider, reply 3
There is a difference between randomness that effects how you play a game and randomness that effects how well you play. Getting a 3/5 instead of a 5/3 is randomness that makes your experience different and allows you to try different strategies. Getting a 3/2 with no room for expansions is just a totally random handicap that you can do nothing about.  It doesn't require you try out a new strategy you will simply do the normal strategy worse.

I pretty much agree with this.

Due to the way we handle cities in this game, starting locations should never be "bad" imho, just different.
End of Tasunke's quote

Yes, that's the problem as I see it. 

How many people who buy and play the game for the first time, and who are not in the habit of rerolling like I suspect most of us are, will just get a crummy location and have a crummy time in their first game? How many of them won't even bother with a second game?

And if most of us are re rolling until we get a location we like, isn't that just a handicap for the AI, which struggles enough as it is?

There is enough randomness, bugs and other things to go wrong in this game that I don't much reason for tying some players shoelaces together, just to make the game a little bit "crazier."

Personally I'd make all the starting locations the same in terms of food, as that's a huge factor in how your early civilization grows, which in turn effects everything else. Then make the starting locations interesting by giving each of them 3 other resources from those available.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting momosa, reply 13
Is there any sort of plan for ships and other vessels in future?
End of momosa's quote

Nothing concrete, although the devs have mused about them a bit. We might see them added in a patch a few months after release and if not then in the next expansion.

Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 9



Quoting Bellack,
reply 8
Yes it does. If you start out in a 3/2 with no apparent room for expansion then you have to adjust you stratagy which means take from your enemies.


Who have a way better start then you? So they have more cities, higher population, much more production, not to mention the defensive stat bonus and militia. As far as strategies go that one is pretty bad. If you feel like handicapping yourself that's your prerogative and you can set the AI to ridiculous, but don't think other players want totally random and arcane handicaps.  I think it is pretty widely accepted common sense that in games players should have fairly even starting positions.

 
End of DsRaider's quote

It's called challange.  And yes the stratagy does work and I have done it many times.  The thing of it is that you can't sit on your butt and mash the next turn button building up your empire with impunity like you would if you started the game in a nice spot. You will have to strike and strike fast. You have to take more chances because you are fighting for your empires survival more so than if you had a prim piece of realistate.

And I'll tell you somethings games like that tend to be more exciting and victory is a lot more sweeter.  But then I perfer more of a challange than the average gamer does and this includes in multiplayer games where you can set options to completly randomize starting locations which if the game has I always pick. 

Reply #17 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Sethai, reply 14



Quoting Tasunke,
reply 12

Quoting DsRaider, reply 3
There is a difference between randomness that effects how you play a game and randomness that effects how well you play. Getting a 3/5 instead of a 5/3 is randomness that makes your experience different and allows you to try different strategies. Getting a 3/2 with no room for expansions is just a totally random handicap that you can do nothing about.  It doesn't require you try out a new strategy you will simply do the normal strategy worse.

I pretty much agree with this.

Due to the way we handle cities in this game, starting locations should never be "bad" imho, just different.


Yes, that's the problem as I see it. 

How many people who buy and play the game for the first time, and who are not in the habit of rerolling like I suspect most of us are, will just get a crummy location and have a crummy time in their first game? How many of them won't even bother with a second game?

And if most of us are re rolling until we get a location we like, isn't that just a handicap for the AI, which struggles enough as it is?

There is enough randomness, bugs and other things to go wrong in this game that I don't much reason for tying some players shoelaces together, just to make the game a little bit "crazier."

Personally I'd make all the starting locations the same in terms of food, as that's a huge factor in how your early civilization grows, which in turn effects everything else. Then make the starting locations interesting by giving each of them 3 other resources from those available.
End of Sethai's quote

Well I in the minority here but I never reroll starting locations in any game I play even if just learning. But having an option to determain starting location is always good

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 16
It's called challange. And yes the stratagy does work and I have done it many times. The thing of it is that you can't sit on your butt and mash the next turn button building up your empire with impunity like you would if you started the game in a nice spot. You will have to strike and strike fast. You have to take more chances because you are fighting for your empires survival more so than if you had a prim piece of realistate.

And I'll tell you somethings games like that tend to be more exciting and victory is a lot more sweeter. But then I perfer more of a challange than the average gamer does and this includes in multiplayer games where you can set options to completly randomize starting locations which if the game has I always pick.
End of Bellack's quote

Sigh, indeed challenge can be fun and interesting but that is a completely different point that has nothing to do with the discussion. If someone wants challenge they can set it in the start menu, which is kinda the point. Completely random handicaps that are as severe as no room for expansion should not be applied at the start of the game. Practically any strategy works in a beta with an incomplete AI that doesn't make it a good one.