[.91] A Discussion On Cities And Outposts

After seeing some harsh words flung about the forums earlier today about the balance and strategy involved with empire-building, I decided to take some time to lay out all of the main elements involved, and try to come up with a somewhat objective discussion topic on the subject.

The Pioneer

Any discussion about the state of Cities and Outposts in FE must begin with Pioneers.  The Pioneer is quite possibly the single most produced unit in the game. 

What is the Pioneers job?

  1. To begin construction on a new settlement (city) or outpost.  This includes a wide variety of skills from carpentry, masonry, and construction to design and planning, through implementation and coordination, to completion.
  2. To transport production materials and seed population or workers safely to its destination through harsh environments.

A job which requires a lot of skill sets and some serious initiative.  Interestingly, Pioneers require fewer materials to train than even a common club wielding thug (32 vs 48, granted the weak trait gives -8) and receive the same salary (1 gildar per turn each.)

The City

What do cities give to the faction?

  1. Gives population, which in turn gives research, production, gildar (through taxes)
  2. Adds a production queue, which allows the city to specialize based (somewhat) upon the city's foundational fertility and productivity and natural resource collection
  3. Adds to the faction's influence on the map, which allows among other things control over natural resources; influence grows over time
  4. Cities offer training opportunities and a defensive boni to stationed units, both of which increase the viability of the faction's military in regards to protecting and expanding it's natural resource holdings

In what ways are cities limited?

  1. Must be founded on fertile, productive land
  2. Must be founded at least 8 tiles from the nearest city
  3. Besides the first city, requires a pioneer to be founded
  4. Growth of each city limited by total number of cities controlled (faction prestige / total number of cities)

The Outpost

What do outposts give to the faction?

  1. Adds to the faction's influence on the map, which allows among other things control over natural resources; influence static

In what ways are outposts limited?

  1. Requires a pioneer to be built

The Discussion

The only real thing that appears unbalanced here is the relative cost of the pioneer unit.  It seems to me that a job which requires that much knowledge and labor should require a lot more training and pay.  I don't know what the exact number of materials ought to be for training, but intuition tells me somewhere in the 100 range might work well.  As for the wages, some where in the 2.0 - 3.0 range would seem about right.   The player should feel the burn early in the game, and from the mid-game on the temporary gildar hit would generally be no more than a nuisance, unless the player tried to simultaneously have multiple pioneers in play.

As a side effect of building population through many cities perhaps a small faction wide unrest per population per city penalty could be introduced.  It seems like a larger population spread out over a wide area should be more difficult to control.  Maybe this could introduce ways to limit population in a city, like a Family Planning Center improvement :D

 

 

 

8,228 views 7 replies
Reply #1 Top

I wouldn't say that the pioneer is the only unbalanced thing. Even if pioneers were expensive, they would be in high demand because many cities is almost always better than fewer cities. The slower growth from multiple cities doesn't really matter much, especially since they seem to grow to cap so easily anyway.

Reply #2 Top

to sum it up "pioneers are too cheap", you have a point

why do you need to write a whole post on it ? :vulcan:

Reply #3 Top

Make a pioneer cost 10 population. That would slow down spamming. 

I have a post with my own suggestions on this here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/422980

Reply #4 Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 3
Make a pioneer cost 10 population. That would slow down spamming. 

End of joasoze's quote

That would be a nice little tweak, but broadly I'm surprised how happy I am with the current system.

The limited supply of fertile ground works pretty well at limiting city clutter. But to be honest, someone's going to build a city on every patch of fertile ground that isn't too near another city.

It would be easier to just ditch that whole extra layer and spawn a few "potential city location" resources across the map and let us pick which ones we wanted to build on, and then let us build outposts on spaces without these resources or too close to other cities.

Reply #5 Top

I don't see 'outpost-spamming' as that big a deal.

Reply #6 Top


This has been beat to death, over and over, and SD has made it clear that they have a vision for what they want cities to do, and all the discussion in the world from us won't change that now.  Just wait for B4.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Winnihym, reply 6

This has been beat to death, over and over, and SD has made it clear that they have a vision for what they want cities to do, and all the discussion in the world from us won't change that now.  Just wait for B4.
End of Winnihym's quote

I think we may be talking about two different things.

Anyway, all I really had to conclude from my musings is that perhaps pioneers should cost more resources.  I don't believe the system is nearly as imbalanced or non-strategic as some have made it out to be.