[Beta 3] Faction Traits Critique

from Elemental Forums

So since Beta 3 is all about faction differentiation I will give some feedback on it. Yes I am aware they aren't anywhere near done but I can give feedback on what they have released so far. From what I have seen so far most factions get a play style trait and some sort of equipment or spell trait. The problems I can see are that a lot of the traits don't actually change play style much and some are much better then others. A lot of these traits could really be reorganized so that factions are more customizable, a lot of abilities that are completely unrelated  are thrown together into one trait just so a certain race can have both. I suggest doubling the amount of points factions get and making some traits cost 1 and others 2. This will make traits much easier to balance because it's very hard make  each trait equally valuable especially when half them simply give equipment.

Let's start with the ones that are closest to being finished.

Magmar   A-

Blood: 25% fire resistance

Slavelords: Razing a city grants your capital half it's population. Killing a humanoid gives nearest city 1 pop. Grants cheap slave units.

FleshTome: Grants several spells and scar-stones.

Magmar seems oriented to run a tall but aggressive empire. Slavelords is still the most interesting trait in the game by far. It allows a completely unique play style, we need more traits like it. However their blood ability is kinda weak and you can't really plan around it. Flesh Tome is a nice combo with slaves but why does it contain candlecloak and scarstones? You could probably bundle the stone with the fire resistance into a whole new trait and add a proper blood trait that increases with level, you could also add a weakness to cold. Then you could add the spells from Flesh Tome that are designed for use with slaves to Slavelords. 

 

Gilden   B-

Blood: +1 hitpoint per level, + 30 spell resistance, tactical spells cost %50 more. 

Mastersmiths: Equipment costs half normal production, half resources to upgrade. Grants Golem Shield.

Lightplate: Replaces chainmail with lightplate.

Great Hammers: Grants player several unique heavy weapons.

I can't say I see where your are going with Gilden other then they use a lot of equipment. They get Golems and cool equipment but their playstyle is still generic. Mastersmiths allows them to build heavy units quickly which means their strategy will pretty much be to grab resources so they can spam heavy equipment units. Maybe think of adding another trait that deals with their need for resources. Also I imagine Mastersmiths grants you Golems but it doesn't actually say so. I haven't tested it myself but it seems weird to give them all this heavy equipment but no extra encumbrance, maybe Great Hammers could boost encumbrance. Here is an ideas for additional trait that would work nicely with Mastersmiths.

Earthworkers: +10% metal and crystal production. Allows you to upgrade Mines to Deepmines, which have upkeep but produce more metal.

 

Yithril   D

Blood: +20 Weight

Training: Grants Training tech. 

Warriorcaste: Units are produced at 2nd level.

Great Axes: Unlocks several unique axes.

No Range: Cannot build ranged units.

Yithril has also been changed quite a bit as well. Great Axes is pretty generic. Warriorcaste seems a little off to me, a level mostly translates into a hitpoint bonus. This won't change play style much as it is really a percentage bonus. This trait seems to encourage players to pump out lots of troops and use quantity over quality, which is not how I see Trogs. Yithril seems designed to rush quickly at the start and overwhelm enemies, other then that they will play normally. They could really use some spicing up. It seems to me that with the removal of Umber the Trogs have become more generic because they used to be mini giants.  I would like to see their blood ability increasing their base unit cost but granting +1 attack and hit point per level, as well as the encumbrance boost. No range seems kinda gimmicky to me. I would rather they received a research penalty, especially to civics, or something. They could counteract this with an ability that allows them to gain research through destroying enemy improvements, units, and taking cities.

It seems like you deviated from the original purpose of blood traits, which was to replace racial stat differences. Magmar, Altar, Krax, Tarth, and Yithril all have weird abilities that don't really even change stats much. Every blood ability should change base stats and have a per level component. Other effects like defense boosts when below a certain amount of health should be normal traits not racial ones. Also a lot of traits don't change play style much like Heroic, Defensive, and Warriorcaste. I know these races haven't really been worked on yet but still it would be good to keep in mind when designing new traits that the trait should change the way you play the game not just give percentage bonuses. In another thread I have some examples. Also while there is a lot of good content in the new faction traits they seem really unorganized. Please don't add things that should be two separate traits into one thing thing for convenience, it will really hurt our ability to create custom factions. Increasing the given faction points and making some traits cost 2 points would help with this.

3,187 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Reserved

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree with your comments on Yithril completly. They were much better in 0.87 when their troops cost more but were tougher as it made them unique instead of just slightly better at something. No ranged weapons seems unecessary, maybe if they didn't get either archers or magi but having neither just essentially makes them pure axemen. A research penalty would fit in well with Yithril and a research bonus for conquering cities would be fun. Maybe Yithril should get a limited range throwing axe item?

I was gonna write a post on blood traits but you said pretty much what I would have, blood traits should all grow with levels. I'l just add that Magmars 25% fire resistsance is overkill, even a 10% bonus would be nice. In fact every %  that deals with spell dmg seems too be way too large. A warrior gets like +1 dmg from a trait while mage get +50% dmg.

Deepmines seems like a great mechanic

Overall Gilden and Yithril seem to be suffering from one dimensionalness. Magnar at least is fire magic and slavery while Gilden is just armor and Yithril just big axemen. Expand each races lore to add some personality.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Yithril - I like the concept of Yithril gaining research points (say 0 points for level 1 city, 20 points for level 2 city, 30 points level 3 city, 40 points for level 5 city)  from the conquest of cities. It reminds me of the Tsgardi race, in the syfy series: A Galaxy Unkown. This warriour culture gained most of their research advances by conquering other races.

I agree that the blood ability should give them +1 hp per level to reflect their stronger constitution.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Edwin99, reply 3
Yithril - I like the concept of Yithril gaining research points (say 0 points for level 1 city, 20 points for level 2 city, 30 points level 3 city, 40 points for level 5 city) from the conquest of cities. It reminds me of the Tsgardi race, in the syfy series: A Galaxy Unkown.
End of Edwin99's quote

Ya it just seems weird to me that the barbarian style races are building schools and universities. I have been trying to think up a way for them to gain research in a unique way that will help differentiate civilized factions from barbarian ones.

Other then stealing tech my other idea is to gain tech as a quest reward through a trait called Archeology or Scavenger. Basically it would give  you research points as a reward for completing quests and destroying monster lairs. Elemental is a post apocalyptic world so it would match the lore if you could discover lost techs.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 4

Ya it just seems weird to me that the barbarian style races are building schools and universities. I have been trying to think up a way for them to gain research in  a unique way that will help differentiate civilized factions from barbarian ones.
End of DsRaider's quote

 

First idea: what about giving them a a cheap special unit that works only in their own territory, and converts magic at the shard source into research?

 

Second idea: Fine tune the AI so that the Yithril AI demands research points from other players, either as one time or continuous tribute.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Yeah I could see some sort of oracle ability or improvement working working as an alternative to the normal civics buildings. Although this would be more for very magical teams like say Roseln then Yithril.

 The only problem with my Archeology idea is that it might be a little inconsistent. Maybe instead of always granting a set amount of tech points every time you kill a monster lair there could be a chance of spawning a Dig Site which you can build on to produce research. Without the trait you couldn't build on them. While this still doesn't quite fit the barbarian theme it would make for interesting gameplay as instead of building research cities you would gain tech by exploring and claiming dig sites.

 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Glazunov1, reply 5
Second idea: Fine tune the AI so that the Yithril AI demands research points from other players, either as one time or continuous tribute.
End of Glazunov1's quote

Teach us to live or we murder you? So crazy it could work.

Seriously though, reading Yithril lore makes it seem rather unlikely that they build universities and studies (Me murder king!, Obey!)

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top


I like both of those ideas, and i think they should be combined, something like this: each monster you kill should give you a few research points - perhaps equal to the xp bonus you get, that way you get more if you dont use heroes.

Also a set amount for destroying lairs, and a substantial amount for clearing wildlands.

They should have limited access to tech building and should have a researching penalty in towns.

Then, presumably, when all the lairs are cleared they should have access to a special tech or unit that allows them to generate research point from shards  in addition to or instead of mana - perhas each shard would generate 2 mana plus 3 research ?  Not sure what would make for good numbers or how many of theses harvester units could generate research points from a single shard - maybe  they have one per settled town, not captured, and each element would generate a different type of research - life give civics, death fives warfare, fire warefare, water civics and earth and air give magical.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting DsRaider, reply 6
DP
End of DsRaider's quote

 

I've no idea what you mean.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Sorry that was a mistake it is fixed now. I thought I had doubled posted but apparently not.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Not a problem. :)

 

I agree, I'd like to see the Yithril as a very individualized force, something like the horse archer barbarians of yore: fast but primitive, relying upon speed, ranged attacks, and threats to achieve their goals before other, more sophisticated races meet them head on.  Given an early enough start, with horses and bows, they could create a steamroller effect.  Playing them should be a challenge, and a very different game from the others--which is your point, and one I really like.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Glazunov1, reply 11
I agree, I'd like to see the Yithril as a very individualized force, something like the horse archer barbarians of yore: fast but primitive, relying upon speed, ranged attacks, and threats to achieve their goals before other, more sophisticated races meet them head on. Given an early enough start, with horses and bows, they could create a steamroller effect. Playing them should be a challenge, and a very different game from the others--which is your point, and one I really like.
End of Glazunov1's quote

Well Yithril aren't big on horses or archery but that's the general idea. I guess you could simulate the whole barbarian horde thing by denying them the ability to build research buildings and allowing them to steal other players research points, you know those new trading resources they added. They would steal the points by destroying improvements and taking cities. Then they would still get a fair amount of base research from base population and stealing but the only way they could get a research city is to conquer it.