[0.9] [Balance] Dodge and Spell Resistance

Dodge and Spell Resistance do not scale with the level, but Accuracy and Spell Mastery scale with the level. That makes Dodge and Spell Resistance useless at higher levels. Either all stats should scale with the level or none of them.

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Reply #1 Top

lol i dont really see why... there are too many factors to consider, not only scaling or not scaling, life for example the availabilty of those stats in items, traits etc

 

can you explain better why IYO those stats are *useless* ?

 

Reply #2 Top

Let's go through examples to see if the suggestion makes sense. 'High' units are high level units. 'Low' units are low level units.

Current system, only accuracy raises:

Low vs Low fight: Medium chance to hit for both.

Low vs High: Medium chance to hit for Low, High chance to hit for High.

High vs High: Both have high chance to hit.

 

Then we add 'High +dodge' and 'Low +dodge' units to the mix. High/Low level units that have invested into dodge. OP claim is that it is not worthwhile. What are the effect?

Low vs Low +dodge: Low has trouble hitting, Low +dodge has medium chance.

Low +dodge vs Low +dodge: Both have trouble hitting.

Low vs High +dodge: Low has trouble hitting, High change to hit for high.

 

So against low level units an accuracy raise is useful, no matter what your own level. How about against high level units?

High vs High +dodge: If 'High' accuracy minus base 'High' dodge is 100 or below, then High suffers just as much against '+dodge' opponents as the normal 'Low' unit. If, however, some '+dodge' effect is lost due to the 100 accuracy limit not being hit early enough, then '+dodge' is not as useful as against low level units.

For example if a unit has 150 accuracy, then it doesn't matter if the target has 10 or 50 dodge. Against those units, raising dodge has no effect unless you can go over 50. But if your opponent has less than 100 accuracy, you dodge is always useful.

 

To sum it up, it's not only a matter of whether or not dodge should increase by level or not. It's a matter of balancing all the numbers. If dodge increases by level, then 'Low' vs 'High' situation changes too, probably in favor of the 'High' unit.

Reply #3 Top

Quoting Vallu751, reply 2

Then we add 'High +dodge' and 'Low +dodge' units to the mix. High/Low level units that have invested into dodge. OP claim is that it is not worthwhile. What are the effect?

Low vs Low +dodge: Low has trouble hitting, Low +dodge has medium chance.

Low +dodge vs Low +dodge: Both have trouble hitting.

Low vs High +dodge: Low has trouble hitting, High change to hit for high.

So against low level units an accuracy raise is useful, no matter what your own level. How about against high level units?

High vs High +dodge: If 'High' accuracy minus base 'High' dodge is 100 or below, then High suffers just as much against '+dodge' opponents as the normal 'Low' unit. If, however, some '+dodge' effect is lost due to the 100 accuracy limit not being hit early enough, then '+dodge' is not as useful as against low level units.
End of Vallu751's quote

Low vs Low +dodge or Low +dodge vs Low +dodge or will not result in trouble hitting the opponent, because the unit needs many traits or items to get a dodge of 10+ and an attack chance of 60 % without dodge or 50 % with dodge is not a big difference.

Low vs High +dodge can result in trouble hitting the opponent if he has many traits or items to get a dodge of 30+, because an attack chance of 60 % without dodge or 30 % with dodge is a big difference.

High vs High +dodge will not result in trouble hitting the opponent, because it is easy to get an accuracy of 110+ and that makes a dodge of 10 useless and even a dodge of 30 not very useful.

Reply #4 Top

Kudos for being able to read through my cryptic notation. It got a bit messed up with the +dodge things, sorry about that  |-)

I haven't looked at the actual numbers in the game yet. Maybe it's just too difficult to get a meaningful dodge now?

To keep the game interesting though, units should be hitting a lot more often than missing. It's very boring if a combat drags if no-one can hit.

Reply #5 Top

Spell Resistance does increase with level.

Dodge only increases with level if the unit has the Acrobat trait.

Though Dodge doesn't generally increase with level Hit Points do (and attack doesn't) so it generally works out.

Higher level monsters definitely test the extremes of Dodge, making those high Accuracy units valuable.

Reply #6 Top

Quoting Vallu751, reply 4
Kudos for being able to read through my cryptic notation. It got a bit messed up with the +dodge things, sorry about that 

I haven't looked at the actual numbers in the game yet. Maybe it's just too difficult to get a meaningful dodge now?

To keep the game interesting though, units should be hitting a lot more often than missing. It's very boring if a combat drags if no-one can hit.
End of Vallu751's quote

No problem, i like cryptic posts :)

After i have just finished my first game (medium map, challenging difficulty) i have noticed that the problem of dodge and spell resistance is the extreme effect of these stats. They are useless if accuracy and spell mastery are too high and they are overpowered if the character reaches a high level, because with a high dodge and spell resistance the character is immune to most attacks.

Quoting Derek, reply 5
Spell Resistance does increase with level.

Dodge only increases with level if the unit has the Acrobat trait.

Though Dodge doesn't generally increase with level Hit Points do (and attack doesn't) so it generally works out.

Higher level monsters definitely test the extremes of Dodge, making those high Accuracy units valuable.

End of Derek's quote

Thank you very much for your answer. I noticed that the spell resistance scales with the level as i wrote the following stats on a piece of paper :)

Assassin level 20 (no problem with brilliant and ring of wisdom):

Accuracy: 160 (80 base + 60 level + 20 discipline)

Dodge: 60 (0 base + 40 acrobat + 10 dodge II + 10 evade)

Spell Mastery: 180 (60 base + 60 level + 60 brilliant) (brilliant is too powerful, because it increases the xp by 25 %, too)

Spell Resistance: 90 (0 base + 60 level + 20 discipline + 10 spell resistance I)

 

If i can avoid those high level monsters and kill the low and medium level units of the AI it is not balanced in my opinion and the scaling hit points can be reduced with one critical hit (28 % chance at level 20). I think the stats should be perhaps changed in that direction:

Accuracy: 60 base and no scaling per level

Dodge: 0 base and no scaling per level (acrobat should be reduced to 1 / level)

Spell Mastery: 60 base and no scaling per level (brilliant should be recuced to 2 / level)

Spell Resistance: 0 base and no scaling per level

Reply #7 Top

I think mage units should make an attack with spell mastery and the opponent should defend with spell resistance, because otherwise mages are only archers.