E: FE, Gal Civ 2, MoM, AoW 2/SM and MoO2

from Elemental Forums

I was going thru my regular "going back to good old games" routine lately and i finally figured out, why the heck Stardock is still one step behind when it comes to reimplementing stuff that was great 10+ years ago.

Lets start.

Map:

In both GalCiv2 and E: FE there is influence thingie, which is not bad at all. Really. It adds some depth and maybe it has its uses, but currently i do not think its as good as it should be or as useful as should be (its not much so for GalCiv2). Currently it's being abused by encroaching on enemy territory with it and not allowing AI to expand by blocking it in some corner. GalCiv logic still eludes me( i LOVE GalCiv2, really, but some things make me mad) - like moving SLOW in Yor space. I mean wth, what they did there so you cant move properly? Lets look at classic examples:

MoO2: you could not block enemies in any way. They could colonize planet next to yours and that was fine imo. Logical and fine.

MoM: same as above. 3 hex rule for towns still apply.

AoW2 SM: if some1 enters my territory( casting zone) he should be prepaired for some nasty surprises. Other than that - we dont have any means to actually stop AI in any way.

Not to mention the fact that the expansion of influence zone in E:FE is undocumented, which doesnt allow us to plan ahead properly (which becomes essential at high diff levels).

 

Combat:

I'm gonna whine a lot here. GalCiv2 and E:FE share a flaw here. I was really amazed how SD could screw something twice and do it right once (SoaSE). Basically the system consists of Attack and Defense which negate each other ( Gal Civ 2 has three of those for Missile, Beam and Mass Driver, but they dont make sense and have no differences). You just pump those high and dont about anything else. In the end ONE ship/unit with these stats off the charts is always better than ANY number of weaker ships/units. In E:FE i just made one uber hero which just wtfpooned thru entire map, oneshotting these stupid glass cannons. There were enough rants about this on forums, so i'll stop here. Now, lets compare:

 

MoO2: ships could be outfitted to serve different roles, defeat opponets in differet manner and so on. You could outmaneuver stronger ship and bring it down no matter what. And there was no ubership out there which could not be killed. 

MoM: tactical usage of magic and units made the day. There were no uber units (exept flying warships, heehee) and it was all nice and smooth. You could defeat any army by proper application of magic.

AoW2: SM: with 1.4 and MP Evolution patches this game became a fantasy tactical simulator. Each unit unique and upgradable it's still unsurpassed in terms of tactical possibilities. Not to mention the fact that SEVERAL armies could engage in a fight with each other and also FLANK each other on global map.

In general - "the defense negates offense" style sucks. Look at SoaSE! If you are swarmed - you are dead. You can last longer with upgrades, but thats it. You WILL die.

Actually i consider combat the biggest flaw of GalCiv2 and E:FE and its the reason why i dont play em. MoM and MoO2 own them here any day. 

 

Magic Research (applies to E:FE only):

Magic system is strange to say the least. Why the classical spell research system was dumped - i still dont understand. Most of the spells being common for everyone and others being specific for some school? Why? Why not make the schools differ? Not like it matter much due to fact, that warrior hero just obliterates everything in its path. Pumping loads of levelup skills into one magic school to access a few spells? Why bother? The research merged with regular economy/combat trees makes no sense either. Its MAGIC, not your woodcutting master class. And achieving a magic win by researching the ultimate spell? You kiddin me? Those guys, who invened that leather armor now want to dominate world with magic? I'll pass.

 

AoW2: Regular research with spells from other schools tradeable. Or you can get em from spirits. Or you can find em on map. Possibilities! And you can research traits too!

MoO: regular spell research, and spell of mastery! Pew pew. Nothing exeptional, but it works, dammit. And its 90's.

 

Cities:

In GalCiv2 managing planets was a pain. Yes, a major pain in a major ass. Never played thru a large map due to fact, that it took so much time its not funny. In E: FE now we can see the city, big and proud. What, what? Its a clutter of thumb-sized building i will never be able to see properly. Thats on 22 inch monitor. I'm really NOT looking forward to playing it on my notebook... I DO understand the desire to make the city look big and cool and all. But rally, look at Civ 5. I dont like it, but cities look big there AND use one square. And its fine. Also the fact that 23 pop generates 2.3 production and 8 resource generate 16 makes no sense to me. You can make a decent city even w/o bonuses in every other game. Some games dont have those altogether. So why you actually force us to look for 1-2 sweet spots and then just clutter the map with undefendable outposts? In GalCiv2 limited terraforming was much more inferior to MoO2.

 

MoO2: Planet mattes, its size and bonuses. Bonuses are good, but not mandatory.

MoM: bonuses are importand, but you can go w/o them also and make a decent town. 

AoW2: doesnt care much.

 

In short in every other game you do not struggle to get sweet city spot. Here we actually do. 

 

Global Spells:

 

This will apply more to E:FE but in general stardock games lack the ability to affect the enviroment like other games do. Same applies for GalCiv2.

MoO2: Create AND setroy planets. Terraform em up to Gaia. What i laked is controlled wormhole creation :) 

MoO: it offers little, but volcanoes are cool anyway.

AoW2: the FUN. Drown the entire map, burn it. Freeze it. Dig thru earth. Raise and lower mountains. Create woods. Its incredible.

 

 

Long story short: I've been a fan of SD for a long time. I own GalCiv2, Demigod, SoaSE and E:FE now. And i believe i share SD's love for classics. But dear God, you are doing it wrong! (c)

 

P.S.: sorry for typos.

5,300 views 8 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

Magic Research (applies to E:FE only):

Magic system is strange to say the least. Why the classical spell research system was dumped - i still dont understand. Most of the spells being common for everyone and others being specific for some school? Why? Why not make the schools differ? Not like it matter much due to fact, that warrior hero just obliterates everything in its path. Pumping loads of levelup skills into one magic school to access a few spells? Why bother? The research merged with regular economy/combat trees makes no sense either. Its MAGIC, not your woodcutting master class. And achieving a magic win by researching the ultimate spell? You kiddin me? Those guys, who invened that leather armor now want to dominate world with magic? I'll pass.

AoW2: Regular research with spells from other schools tradeable. Or you can get em from spirits. Or you can find em on map. Possibilities! And you can research traits too!

MoO: regular spell research, and spell of mastery! Pew pew. Nothing exeptional, but it works, dammit. And its 90's.

Global Spells:

This will apply more to E:FE but in general stardock games lack the ability to affect the enviroment like other games do. Same applies for GalCiv2.

MoO2: Create AND setroy planets. Terraform em up to Gaia. What i laked is controlled wormhole creation  

MoO: it offers little, but volcanoes are cool anyway.

AoW2: the FUN. Drown the entire map, burn it. Freeze it. Dig thru earth. Raise and lower mountains. Create woods. Its incredible.

End of quote

This is not to be rude, but I don't quite agree with your post.

Your comments to Magic Research....

While I one of the spells granted from magic research (Obscuring fog) is placed wrongly, the rest seem like they are placed rather nicely here.. And you want Master of Magic to research spells.. but not Elemental: Fallen Enchantress?..

Cant say I like the ability to trade spells or researches you cannot research yourself, as you are able to do in MoO and AoW2... That is obscure and only asks for abuse In My Opinion, if you are not able to trade spells at all is fine with me...
And I cant tell the difference between Age of Wonders2 compared to Elemental, except the "Traits" are going to be proper researches...

I assume with the "MoO: Regular spell research, and spell of mastery!... etc." am thinking about Master of Magic.
So you complain about "Elemental: Fallen Enchantress" having a "Master Spell of Winning" but you like "Master of Magic" having a "Spell of Making... of Winning".... What??

Global Spells:

Are we playing the same game?? I think create mountain, lower terrain and raise terrain affects the environment GREATLY.. While most of these spells ATM. is in the earth class, the game is still to be MONTHS in beta and details like this should probably be presented as a wish for more environment changers, although ATM. I think there are alot... (among the raise terrains etc. there are some lvl 5 earth spells I havent been able to test due to the levelup system being impossible).

But can't say I feel the consistency in your post.

The thing about cities are greatly discussed in another post, so I will not add it here at all...

You seem rather inconsistent in what you like contra what you want others to change...

That said, I don't really like Gal Civ 2... Somethings bugging me and I simply feel MoO2 is way better ^_^ But this is not the forum for Gal Civ 2, and I do like Elemental: Fallen Enchantress as is (though not gonna play it alot if it doesnt get more content ;))

PS. Some of the things you took up, they have promised to work on... Have you noticed this?

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

You may want to take some time and learn the combat mechanics and then rewrite this. It contains several errors in logic and understanding of FE. I guess we can look at this and think about how to make the mechanics more transparent for users that are more familiar with other games. 

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 2
You may want to take some time and learn the combat mechanics and then rewrite this. It contains several errors in logic and understanding of FE. I guess we can look at this and think about how to make the mechanics more transparent for users that are more familiar with other games. 
End of seanw3's quote

I do think he is decently right though, one powerfull unit is way better than 3 stacks of 3 of less powerfull units, even if the 3*3 have a combined higher attack, and have the same defense...

I just think it needs some bumping, because I still feel defense feels "Weird" in this game...

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

I am happy to explain any part of this post that people think is right. 

Re: Defense

One unit with an attack of 20 should do more damage than two units with an attack of 10 against 7 armor (Full Leather Clad Unit). Greater attack means a more devastating blow. Two medium blows against a defending unit would be less detrimental than one devastating blow. A realistic mechanic. The problem is that units don't have enough starting Hp to take any blows with the current balance. The mechanic is well thought out, but the balance is off. I can say with absolute certainty that giving each unit more starting Hp fixes the problem. I have tested it extensively. 

This is how it works:

Max Damage = Attack * (Attack/(Attack+Defense))                

Max damage = 20 * (20/27) ~ 15 damage

Min Damage = Max Damage / 2          

Min Damage = 15/2 ~ 7                                 

A very apt mechanic, but hidden from the user, causing an extremely casual player to think it is using the old GalCiv system. I assure it does not. Even better, this applies to Cutting, Blunt, and Pierce. That means that certain types of armor can be better at blocking certain types of weapons. Can't think of a TBS game that does this better. The problem is that a given unit may have as little as 15-25 HP, so one to two hits spells death. I find 25-120 Hp leaves more room for interesting battles.

The system is further complicated by magic and special abilities, not mention Hp. Two units mean the enemy must cast two spells to cripple your front line. You will have more Hp in two units than in one, allowing you to move one back after it is near death, while the other continues to fight. You can also flank with two units, bypassing the enemy front line to get at archers and mages. Most of this part is only available in my modded version of the game, where I fix the minor issues preventing this level of combat. Remember, this is still a beta. 

 

 

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Sean, thanks for explanation. But i believe you will agree, that glass cannon spam is terribly annoying and the fact, that you can make a hero, that will single handedly obliterate everything in its path is bad.

 

Kongdej, raise and lower terrain is ok. But its so basic they are not worth mentioning. Compare it to AoW2 and you will see what i mean. I can be inconsistent, but some parts of E:FE that annoy me most are the parts i loved in AoW2 and MoM most. I'll definitely look thru the forum and will keep playing the beta in hope, that those annoyances will be fixed. Cant say i have much hope left tho.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Hettikus, reply 5
Cant say i have much hope left tho.
End of Hettikus's quote

Six more months of changes to come.  It's too early to be giving up.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

I not only agree, I solved the problem. If WoM taught me anything it was how to mod out the things that bother me while I wait for the devs to patch things. The devs help those who help themselves. It is noteworthy that much of what bothers you is being addressed in one form or another in beta 3. Glass Cannons will be much less so as far as I can tell.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Couldn't go to sleep until I explained this:

The Yor Collective use a field generator that prevents warp drives from functioning in their space. Impulse only goes about 3 parsecs per week.  :fuzzy: