[Suggestion] Champion progression

I for one would like definite traits trees, rather than the random, Magic The Gathering style traits thing we have going on now.  But I've already commented to that effect in two other threads.

Your idea of a traits tree, similar to the tech tree, would be nice.  Displaying it in the GUI would require some redesign, though.

A compromise for now would be to have the traits that appear be directly tied to the initial traits you choose (assassin, adventurer, warlord, etc.).  Essentially, any trait directly tied to the advancement of these professions should appear immediately, subject to any imposed level restrictions that may be in place.

Also, Spell list upgrades should also appear more consistently.  Again, these could be tied to level (such as, can only advance a specific spell list level once every three character levels), with those you choose not to advance immediately re-appearing the next time around.

Some professions could have a longer interval between spell list progressions than others, to reflect their focus on more martial or other pursuits.  Or specific spell lists could be tied to a given profession, allowing those to appear more often than the other lists.  Example: Ninja type Assassins like Air List spells, so the Air Spell list tree appears more often/consistently for Assassin types.

Finally, I think the stat gains should be tied to more descriptive traits.  I.E. instead of just +3 to Str, have the +3 to Str accompany another ability, such as increased damage percentage, etc.  This would allow the 'common' stat boost traits to be displaced in favor of the more interesting traits with said stat bonuses.

Another idea would to decouple stat gains from traits entirely, similar to how it was done before in E:WOM, but obviously this was nixed for some reason.

'Trait Trees' For Champions would be nice.

A lot of ways to handle it, but even just a definitive tree would be nice.

If random though, I think 'rough trait trees' based upon probability should probably be located in the Hiergamemnon.

It's hard to say really.

Just allow some picks to unlock new picks while blocking some old picks.

(Like the Paths progression that Sean has been arguing for, for some time)

I would love to see something like this.

If we are going to go this route on Champions though, it would be nice to have a couple trees (Generic Champion, Caster, Governor, Warrior) which each have some nice mutually exclusive choices.

I also think the Governor path should enable alternative forms of Experience gain (other than combat)

Yes, even just sitting in a city should lv governors slowly.

As for Traits being too random, ive never had a problem with it, though thats probably just because there is currently so few implemented.

The idea that you could work towards a powerful trait has appeal. I'd be happy if they just changed mutiple lv traits so they had reward for getting lv 3.

Ex Evoker I: +20% dmg    Evoker II: +40% dmg     Evoker III +60% and champion can cast ManaBlast

If you had the tree I'm ready to bet that you would then have the generic champion everybody would use.

Meaning everyone would take the same trait because it's the strongest.

I prefer randomness. Makes you adapt to the game.

Do I dare propose the HOMM VI model where all traits are available at every level up?  You get to pick one which ever one you want.

You need to take the AI into account here. It will not be able to choose more than one path in the tree system, unless the path is random.

Getting the 'Path of the Govenor' trait should allow champions to get XP from the production of units and buildings in the city which they are stationed.  They would need to be present in the city for the entire time the item was being produced to get the XP.  Rushing should probably not allow any XP.

Or rushing should only give the percentage of building/training that has normally happened (ie. not include the last bit or a lot that is "rushed").

Yes.  That would be cool if not too difficult to code.  Shouldn't be though. 

Here are the Current path trees as of 0.86.  Paths require a minimum level of 4.

Path Of The Assassin (Level 4)
  -->Acrobat
  -->Charge
  -->Gamblers Strike
  -->Master Scout
  -->Precision --> Precision 2 --> Precision 3
  -->True Strike
  -->Vital Strike 1 --> Vital Strike 2 --> Vital Strike 3

Path Of The Defender (Level 4)
  -->Counterattack
  -->Dodge 1 --> Dodge 2 --> Dodge 3
  -->Endurance
  -->Guardian 1 --> Guardian 2 --> Guardian 3
  -->Spell Resistance

Path Of The Governor (Level 4)
  -->Administrator 1 --> Administrator 2 --> Administrator 3
  -->Trainer 1 --> Trainer 2 --> Trainer 3
  -->Loremaster 1 --> Loremaster 2 --> Loremaster 3
  -->Merchant 1 --> Merchant 2 --> Merchant 3

Path Of The Mage (Level 4)
  -->Affinity
  -->Summon 1 --> Summon 2 --> Summon 3
  -->Evoker --> Evoker 2 --> Evoker 3
  -->Prodigy --> Prodigy 2 --> Prodigy 3

Path Of The Warrior (Level 4)
  -->Bloodthirsty
  -->Crushing Blow
  -->Discipline
  -->Double Strike
  -->Leadership 1 --> Leadership 2 --> Leadership 3
  -->Rage
  -->Tactician --> Tactician 2 --> Tactician 3

I would suggest that these paths be tied to stats, with the odds of the initial path appearing at Level 4 being 100% if you meet the stat requirement (12-14?)

Path Of The Assassin: Dex (because Dex needs some love)

Path Of The Defender: Con

Path Of The Governor: Int(?)

Path Of The Mage: Int

Path Of The Warrior: Str

A new stat, Charisma, could be tied to Path Of The Governor.  Charisma would adjust champion recruiting costs if that unit is adjacent to said Champion, and may play in to negotiations with other factions; i.e. if that unit is next to the enemy city when you click the talk option for that city, that unit's Charisma is used.  This might also introduce Diplomat units into the equation, which might have special abilites, such at turning opposing Champions (Fallen vs Men) over to your cause.  Just a thought...

The Charisma level of a Champion stationed in the capital city could be used to modify negotiations with other empires/kingdoms, specifically in trade and treaty negotiations.  In cases where a stack of units evokes a talk window (i.e. you've entered my territory, I want to talk to you), the highest charisma in said stack could be used instead in determining the outcome, should said conversation involve any negotiations.

Less randomness and more difficult but meaningful choices is always a good thing.

Apart from the progression trees - giving them additional bonuses based on race (more differentiation), quests or quest trees and titles (Sovereigns had courts right? Wouldn't the champions be part of it? Making one of your assassins the Spy Master, a warrior the Marshal, a governor the Seward... could affect them and the ones that want that title for themselves) all of that will increase our personal attachment to those unique characters.

Hmm.

Having a court with titles is an interesting idea (names taken straight from Crusader Kings II I see :p) ...

but before we consider it I think we should take a step back and see if a court is even possible.

I DO think that we should be able to unlock more administrative abilities (Path of the Governor etc), but I think a full court at this time is somewhat beyond us (perhaps).

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In Medieval 2 Total War, there was a system of Dread vs Valor, depending on that character added.

High Dread was good for military situations (it was all good military)

while Valor added prestige/city growth to cities.

(Valor also helped the military a bit, but Dread was better imho)

With Dread, enemy units 'broke' more easily so you could slaughter them with Cavalry much more effectively.

I'm not quite sure what Valor did, other than making your own troops a bit more pro-valor ... but if you already had elite-morale type troops this didn't help a lot (imho).

In my mind at least, Valor was better for defending cities, as well as making cities grow ... while Dread was primarily used to make the enemy shake in their boots, allowing a Dread-Lord to route a much larger army ... by scaring the crap out of it one piece at a time.

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In Elemental game terms, Valor champions could add +1 prestige (and +0.5 additional growth in a garrisoned city)

while Dread could give -1 initiative and -10% attack to enemy units. (or more ... or an additional bonus to own troops)

anyways just some ideas ... not sure how 'self actions' could make a lot of choice however, since we don't have the option to "Ransom" or "Execute" enemy Champions at this point in time (after victory). (I Mean we can't even capture enemy Champions at the moment)

And currently new cities automatically have 'normal' unrest and minor population losss ...

(Should be an option to "Exterminate" for massive pop loss and no unrest for a while, and no penalty unrest (as the Evil option), with Enslaving and Looting as Medium choices, with minor pop loss and minor unrest penalties ... with the "Good" option doing nothing (at a large unrest penalty to wear off eventually) which increases said Character's valor.

--> I mean I suppose with city razing this is less of an issue ... but options to Exterminate, Pillage, or Enslave a city would be nice

Equally, simply releasing a Champion (what currently happens) would be the Valorious option, while Ransoming is neutral (with captivity until ransom can be paid, and possible torture options for dread increase), while outright Execution would have a minor dread increase.

Honestly though, the thing that sTorturer's dread as well.

Just some ideas

Anyone else disagree with this? It seems on this particular post that most players don't like randomized trait allocation, but that's what sold me on the hero system in the first place.

Making the decision not to go with the "RARE" trait allowed that level and instead going with a common trait that more closely contributes to your hero's build is a critical decision-making moment for the player. Then there's the times the player can decide to abandon the desired path because they have a rare trait they weren't expecting... I like this a lot. It makes hero-building much more dynamic and interesting.

Didn't know there was a thread specifically for this topic. So I'll just quote what I think from another thread regarding champion progression:

"As for champions, I belive they should expand on the great, great idea of the "paths of...". IMO, all those paths should be trees themselves, that you would be unlocking as your champion levels. Using trees give you the advantage of specializing your heroes, removing the randomness and still making them very powerful (with powerful abilities), when they reach the top of the tree. So, for example, you could have a path of the warrior giving you the chance to make him a dps juggernaut or a tank; a mage specializing in fire or cold, aoe or single target, etc.; a governor choosing between improving recruitment, faster buiding or better income, etc.... and so on. Even build hybrid champions with several paths on them."

As you can see, that's pretty much what's been suggested here.

I would though, if possible, get rid of stat boosting levels. They don't seem to bring anything interesting to the table, and appear a rather lazy approach.

The current system rings wrong when an unlucky high level mage is potentially resigned to casting a fireball with the same potency as a much lower level one if he keeps getting crappy traits for levels (all much too possible now). Nevermind his mana reserves now that there's just one general mana pool from which all spells are cast. This kind of randomness is undesired IMO. It's just an excersise in frustration and dilutes the RPG elements these games are great for.

I disagree! Erm, with the trait trees, not with you. I like the random system.

I'm still only on my first game so I'm not exactly speaking with the voice of experience here, but I get a kick out of having to pick from the five available choices and build a unique custom character, rather than trudging towards optimal character builds. And the champions seem that much more human if they have a bit of a rag-bag of abilities rather than being specialized superbeings.

The only frustrating aspect of it is when the game crashes after leveling up and when you reload rolling different, inferior options. But hey, beta, right?

I like the random options... But I don't like trying to roll a mage and only getting con/str (especially when the hero had 6 strength as a starting score, making him totally useless)

So I don't like when my traits are totally random and usually totally useless unless I am lucky.

Sincerely
~ Kongdej

It is possible for the system to be random and also allow the player to plan out a path for a given hero. It requires balance to the random factor and more options in the levelup tree. This is something we will be dealing with up to release I bet. Feels like a beta 4 issue.

I think ... mage path should get random 'magical based' traits.

Warrior path should get random traits both common and 'warrior like'

Assassin path should get random traits of 'assassin like' and perhaps some common speed traits as well.

etc.

Point is ... while traits themselves should be random (to some degree), I do not think a Mage Path should be getting a 'Warrior' type trait ... or even a COMMON trait as long as there are available spell spheres to learn.