[.86][Balance] Magical Weapons Issue

from Elemental Forums

I have been thinking about magical weapons and there are some problems with the current design scheme. Magic weapons do less damage than their mundane counterparts. I originally accepted this because the thought may have been that a Magic minded nation would have cruder versions of most weapons, but their ability to enchant those crude weapons could make them on par with a more skilled Warfare minded nation. But then I realized that I have to research the standard weapons techs and then the magical ones become available. So in essence, magical weapons are about equal to the previous tech I just researched. Since I have already mastered the art of smithing an ax, I should be able to enchant that ax with fire, making it more powerful than a regular ax. 

This is how I have modded it in my current game:

 

Ax: 10 Cutting, +5 to Crit.

Burning Ax: 10 Cutting, 5 Fire Damage, +5 to Crit. 

 

The effect is that you are enchanting the ax you previously had, to do extra fire damage. It doesn't make sense that the cutting powe would go down by 5. That makes the Burning Ax no better than the Ax I just spent 3 years trying to improve on. 

 

The other way you could go is to not require Burning Ax to have Weapons as a prerequisite. That would follow the idea that a Magic minded nation is focusing on different priorities, and thus rely on magic to compensate for their lack of skill in smithing an ax. It would even better to have a third tech, Masterwork Enchanted Weapons, that does require Weapons and Enchantment. So the player can chose to specialize in the two trees and come out with a better weapon. The opportunity cost would be spending more time in the lower levels of the tech trees, while your opponents get to higher tier techs. 

 

This is all a part of the systemic problem of having the Magic Tree require the Warfare Tree, which requires the Civilization Tree. There is no space here for specialization.

3,620 views 9 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I think forging magical (mundane) weapons *should* require a certain level of proficiency in both the Warfare and Magic tech trees.  Magic crafting ought to be viewed as a highly skilled endeavor that should not be a simple matter. 

Magic-minded individuals should be able to "summon" weapons and armor on-par with their Warfare minded counterparts. 

I still feel like the Magic tech tree is completely horked at this point because of these and other issues.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I propose that enchanted weapons/armor should require both magical and military tech, however they should have their own path in the magical tree so that the rest of the magical tree doesn't require them. You should be able to research robes/staves/spells/crystals/mana without having to research military tech but their should be a reward for researching both.

Some magic/civilization and civ/warfare techs added would be nice too.

Oh and currently units will not upgrade into magical weapons because they are considered worse than their non magical versions. Magical weapons should obviously be considerably better because they require crystal and more tech.

 

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 1
I still feel like the Magic tech tree is completely horked at this point because of these and other issues.
End of mqpiffle's quote

Needs more early game mage champion items (robes/staves), buildings that require crystal and those late game spells moved and made viable.

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Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

The magical weapons should have special properties. My suggestions

 

In addition to normal damage they can do poison, fire or other kinds of damage

A weapon could take 2 hitpoints from the user each time, but do 50% more damage to enemy

Magical arrows that always avoid dodge 

Magical shields that increases dodge, makes user resistant to poison

 

Make the crystal weapons different

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting joasoze, reply 3
Magical arrows that always avoid dodge
End of joasoze's quote

Magical arrows is a great idea, never even occured to me for some reason. Probably should just increase accuracy though and to balance most items shouldn't be usable by archers.

 

Quoting joasoze, reply 3
Make the crystal weapons different
End of joasoze's quote

Crystal weapons? Everything magical costs crystal.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Why think of it as learning how to make and ax and then learning how to enchant it to be a burning ax? How would that process differ from just using burning blade on a weapon? Forging a magically imbued weapon or armor could consist of many different steps than non-magical, perhaps smelting the metal differently. Trying to use the same recipe just without the magical components would yield something unusable. 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Magic in the world of Elemental is imbued on mundane objects. There are many other ways to think about magic, but that is the way it is presented in this game. Magic flows from the shards, to the Sovereign, and then through the Sovereign to all other objects as far as the lore goes. That is the basis we have to work with. 

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 6
Magic in the world of Elemental is imbued on mundane objects. There are many other ways to think about magic, but that is the way it is presented in this game. Magic flows from the shards, to the Sovereign, and then through the Sovereign to all other objects as far as the lore goes. That is the basis we have to work with.
End of seanw3's quote

Not really, because champions and creatures can cast spells without having a connection to a sovereign.

The other way you could go is to not require Burning Ax to have Weapons as a prerequisite. That would follow the idea that a Magic minded nation is focusing on different priorities, and thus rely on magic to compensate for their lack of skill in smithing an ax. It would even better to have a third tech, Masterwork Enchanted Weapons, that does require Weapons and Enchantment. So the player can chose to specialize in the two trees and come out with a better weapon. The opportunity cost would be spending more time in the lower levels of the tech trees, while your opponents get to higher tier techs. 

This is all a part of the systemic problem of having the Magic Tree require the Warfare Tree, which requires the Civilization Tree. There is no space here for specialization.
End of quote

I think this is the best solution, because it encourages the player to choose either warfare or magic and only both if he wants the masterwork enchanted weapons.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Why not just research the enchantment instead of the enchanted weapon or armor?

Instead of burning axe you research the burning enchantment.  This can then be added to any weapon for a crystal cost with a limit of one to two enchantments (or maybe a research set limit).

So if the Magic minded nation has only researched spears then all they can make are burning spears and clubs.

 

I have noticed the problem with trying to upgrade to magic weapons too.  It would be nice if the upgrade option lead to another menu with a list of available weapons and cost .

 

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top


This is why I believe all basic weapons, padded/leather armor and mounts should be available to all factions at the start of the game.  Research should increase an items quality and reduce cost/build time as you progress in the tech trees.  It makes much more sense and lets different factions be more unique and focus on different ways in improving the base weapons. 

Let some factions focus on metal armor, some on cavalry, some on taming fearsome wild beasts etc.

Magic weapons could also be enhanced with additional study... the flaming axe now has a % chance to cause burning damage for 3 rounds.

Magic arrows could be imbued with rust monster powder that dissolves armor }:)

Mundane mounts could be imbued with horseshoes of speed or magical experimentation could lead to Gryphon mounts.