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Is the custom unit design system really that good of an idea?

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Is the custom unit design system really that good of an idea?

from Elemental Forums

I'm beginning to wonder if the game is too complex for it's own good, even after the cutbacks from WoM. It seems like balancing is really difficult, with the dominant strategy thread pointing out that you can steamroll the game with just the very basic of units. To me, the whole unit design system, just like city building tile placement, is an added layer of complexity that really doesn't give that much back.

Just like caravans and city tile placement, the unit design system seems to me like something ported from GalCiv without any thinking into if it actually contributes to the game or not. If the game is finally well balanced at some point, then maybe it's not that big of an issue, but currently it just makes the game more difficult to understand and makes balancing the game that much more difficult.

36,396 views 34 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bingjack, reply 24


Yeah, I don't buy this. There's no way  a completely optional feature that you claim you don't like, and don't want to use, can intrude on your game unless you want it to.
End of Bingjack's quote

if you try it a couple times to find out you don't like it, the AI keeps using the units you designed.

I like unit design in principle, e.g. in SMAC and Galciv, but in E:FE it hasn't captured my interest yet.  It is a little sad to me that all the civs have these special units, "Rangers of the Ebon Chasm" or whatever, but unless you were purposely handicapping yourself to roleplay they aren't as good as your generic "Archer Mk.3".  Not gamebreaking by any means but its just kind of a weird vibe.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Yep ... being able to build every king of unit with each faction seems kind of odd imho ;)

 

Factions should be different enough ... that if we want a truly balanced experience in MP we will need to play the same civ ;)

Siege of Centauri
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Beric01, reply 25

And this "optional" feature WILL intrude on my game. It's resources devoted to a system that will never work properly, and thus taken away from what truly needs work.
.
End of Beric01's quote

 

So you made your argument against it, and move on. If the resources are already spent on developing the feature, what good does it do to require the devs to spend more resources on putting in a function to disable an entirely voluntary function? 

It just sounds like sour grapes.

 

Anyway, I would never say this isn't the game for you, because that's a determination only you can make, and its a kind of smug response, and Ive already given you enough smugness. But I do think you are bound to be disappointed. The game was built around this concept, and it's a core philosophy of Stardock's strategy games. 

Being able to define custom names in a game makes more work for developers too, but they add it because people enjoy it, and it has a value.  Being able to design custom units is a hallmark of some of the greatest games, and we know its entirely possible to still make a good game with them. A rare game that people like because it offers things that garden variety strategy games don't.

 

If this game doesn't work, it won't be because of the concept of custom designed units.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting smakemupagus, reply 26

Quoting Bingjack, reply 24

Yeah, I don't buy this. There's no way  a completely optional feature that you claim you don't like, and don't want to use, can intrude on your game unless you want it to.


if you try it a couple times to find out you don't like it, the AI keeps using the units you designed.

I like unit design in principle, e.g. in SMAC and Galciv, but in E:FE it hasn't captured my interest yet.  It is a little sad to me that all the civs have these special units, "Rangers of the Ebon Chasm" or whatever, but unless you were purposely handicapping yourself to roleplay they aren't as good as your generic "Archer Mk.3".  Not gamebreaking by any means but its just kind of a weird vibe.
End of smakemupagus's quote

 

Agreed.

 

If the system were fully implementable, AI and all, and streamlined to be made very easy, I wouldn't be saying anything. But with the current half-assed unit design, which will always be lacking in the AI department, I think the system detracts from the game more than it adds.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting smakemupagus, reply 26


if you try it a couple times to find out you don't like it, the AI keeps using the units you designed.

.
End of smakemupagus's quote

 

Now that specific issue, *is* something I can see wanting to be able to disable.

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bingjack, reply 28

Quoting Beric01, reply 25
And this "optional" feature WILL intrude on my game. It's resources devoted to a system that will never work properly, and thus taken away from what truly needs work.
.

 

So you made your argument against it, and move on. If the resources are already spent on developing the feature, what good does it do to require the devs to spend more resources on putting in a function to disable an entirely voluntary function? 

It just sounds like sour grapes.
End of Bingjack's quote

Somebody has sour grapes, and it's not me.

Quoting Bingjack, reply 28
Anyway, I would never say this isn't the game for you, because that's a determination only you can make, and its a kind of smug response, and Ive already given you enough smugness. But I do think you are bound to be disappointed. The game was built around this concept, and it's a core philosophy of Stardock's strategy games. 

Being able to define custom names in a game makes more work for developers too, but they add it because people enjoy it, and it has a value.  Being able to design custom units is a hallmark of some of the greatest games, and we know its entirely possible to still make a good game with them. A rare game that people like because it offers things that garden variety strategy games don't.

 

If this game doesn't work, it won't be because of the concept of custom designed units.
End of Bingjack's quote

 

I have to love how you're so innately familiar with Stardock's game design strategy that you think you can speak for them yourself. Now that's the definition of smugness, although unfortunately for you, poorly founded in reality.

 

Let me lay this out very clearly for you:

  1. Unit design, as currently implemented, is a hassle.
  2. The AI cannot properly handle custom unit design, and will never be able to.
  3. There currently exists no real concept of choices in unit design.
  4. Unit design doesn't even matter right now, because basic units in swarms win (As per the OP's post).
  5. Because of the numerous flaws in the current unit design system, resources will have to devoted to fix the system, detracting from developing other parts of the game.

Do with it what you will, but those are facts and logic, not smugness.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Beric01, reply 18
I find custom unit design in any game annoying, and frankly just another thing to do that detracts from playing the normal game. I'm playing a strategy game, and find the detail too tedious. The game should make the best units automatically for both me and the AI. Then there's no imbalance. I like building a civilization from the ground up, researching technology, and building cities, and I'd prefer to do that rather than spend hours in the unit editor. Having to customize units to such detail was one of the few things I disliked about GalCiv.

Make unit customization a disable-able feature. If the AI can't do it, why should I be able to?
End of Beric01's quote

 

Agreed.  I think the only strategy game I've played that had enjoyable unit customization (outside of RPGs, not strategy games) was Alpha Centauri...and even then I got tired of it.  I wanted to shape the future of Planet, not decide the make-up of my latest Chaos Impact Rover.

EDIT: Master of Orion 2 was fun to design units for.  I'd almost forgotten that one :)

 

The wonder of the Elemental series is the potential to strategically participate in the unfolding story of a fantastic world.  Player decisions should be focused to this end.  Unit customization is not an important decision.

If unit customization is in, it should be reserved for champions.  Run-o-the-mill units should lose the grand scale customization.  Instead, implement equipment quality the same as training options; something like "re-purposed farm equipment", "battered military equipment", "standard issue military equipment", "exceptional military equipment".  Pick a basic unit template, pick a training level, pick an equipment level, and keep the game play focused on shaping fantasy kingdoms/empires.

 

I know unit customization is in, but I can live without it.  It definitely isn't a deal maker for me.

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Beric01, reply 31


 

Let me lay this out very clearly for you:


Blargh...unit design!!!
End of Beric01's quote

 

Yes, I have no problem with you disliking custom unit design, and thinking No good game can ever come of it.  I don't agree, but that's just my opinion.

 

My original statement was directed at the desire to put a function to have the feature disabled, when it is completely voluntary.  That makes no sense. The dev resources would have already been spent at that point, and then you ask them to use more to put in a meaningless feature when your concern is supposedly proper use of dev time. That's rather transparently sour grapes.

It was pointed out the AI can sometimes use your custom units if you design them, but again that's only a problem if you actually use the unit designer and don't delete them. Not a problem in your case, since custom unit design in this game murders kittens and you hate it ever so much and dont want to use it. But still, I agree that aspect should be able to be disabled, if you don't want to delete your designs, and dont want the AI to use them.

 

I think we understand each other.

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bingjack, reply 33

Quoting Beric01, reply 31

 

Let me lay this out very clearly for you:


Blargh...unit design!!!


 

Yes, I have no problem with you disliking custom unit design, and thinking No good game can ever come of it.  I don't agree, but that's just my opinion.

 

My original statement was directed at the desire to put a function to have the feature disabled, when it is completely voluntary.  That makes no sense. The dev resources would have already been spent at that point, and then you ask them to use more to put in a meaningless feature when your concern is supposedly proper use of dev time. That's rather transparently sour grapes.

It was pointed out the AI can sometimes use your custom units if you design them, but again that's only a problem if you actually use the unit designer and don't delete them. Not a problem in your case, since custom unit design in this game murders kittens and you hate it ever so much and dont want to use it. But still, I agree that aspect should be able to be disabled, if you don't want to delete your designs, and dont want the AI to use them.

 

I think we understand each other.
End of Bingjack's quote

 

Sounds good then.

 

As far as custom unit design resources, I really think we need more time devoted to the champion/sovereign customization. Those are actual people, versus some unknown soldiers, and customization thus plays bigger role there.

 

I also agree with Napean's perspective above.